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the bridegroom and the bride

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26 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:23 am

Hibbs


I read all but the one that Jugghead posted while I was writing. It also was because of some of the other posts that were on other threads. I guess sometimes that there are things that seem clearer to one than another is able to see. I also think that sometimes we try to see too deeply and lose the simplicity of Christ. I know that there are times that I do the same. In trying to add clarity and understanding of the spiritual truth behind the words of the book, we can add confusion instead.

27 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:47 am

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Hibbs wrote:I read all but the one that Jugghead posted while I was writing. It also was because of some of the other posts that were on other threads. I guess sometimes that there are things that seem clearer to one than another is able to see. I also think that sometimes we try to see too deeply and lose the simplicity of Christ. I know that there are times that I do the same. In trying to add clarity and understanding of the spiritual truth behind the words of the book, we can add confusion instead.

It is in this that I can become easily confused. You guys already see the pattern of the temple in all these things and I am just learning to understand the pattern .

When you guys quote Scripture in an understanding of it (because you already know the pattern and see it), I get lost because I don't know it yet in what you are quoting.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

28 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:51 am

cross-eyed

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This is where we want to make sure we put a comma in our epistles to each other and realize "it's all okay" even though our limited understanding isn't even sure it can define what "okay" is.

This is what makes forums like this one so unique from your typical "christian" conversations. When you go dimensional, understanding is no longer a first prioirity. We talk about seeds being planted and brides becomind wives and intimacy and consumation . . .in the natural, we get what all that is . . .but what is it spiritually?

I'm like you Jugghead . . .I'd LIKE to understand every detail before accepting the whole plate being offered. But reverting back to your vomit and dung post . . . a question that I think would do all of us well to repeat to ourselves continuously would be, "What part of me is wanting this? My spirit? Or my flesh?"

Does my spirit demand understanding? Does my spirit demand "anything"? Even though the authority, the dominion is in the spirit realm, if I "choose" to live by natural reasoning, my spirit will not supercede my choice. The power is there for it to do so, but it doesn't. So when there's this inner stipulation that I simply must know details before I receive, is that my spirit? Or my flesh again?

The reason I put this out there to you is because I constantly have to put this outthere to myself. it surprises . . .shocks even . .. to think that my flesh is driving my agendas more than my spirit.

The truth is, my spirit doesn't need to understand, because my spirit is what it is, a "spirit" understanding and "knowing" go hand-in-hand. Because God doesn't speak to my mind which then filters into my spirit . . .God speaks directly to my spirit. It's a spirit-to-spirit relationship and "that" is where the intimacy lies.

I remember around 15 years ago, I had a room here at work that I'd go to once a night and pray . . .and worship. I worked third shift then so there wasn't as much traffic in the plant as there is during the day. And I found myself crying litterally in these "alone time" moments for intimacy with God. I remember because as I was praying it, I knew when I prayed for it, I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what intimacy with God meant. To me, it was being alone somewhere for extended periods of time in prayer.

but that's really not what intimacy is. it's not what we "do". It's where we "are". It's like what Scherryl was saying . . .or actually it may have been Mr. Hibbs. But whoever said it, it was spot on for me. Revelation comes through intimacy. Intimacy comes through relationship. Relationship comes through faith. And there is the crux. It's all in faith.

This is why "understanding" isn't the top priority. Understanding is merely another term for knowledge. Knowledge is directly connected with logic and reasoning. Faith over-rides all of that. You can't see it. You can't understand it, yet you believe it's there and you accept it.

Understanding is what is birthed AFTER the seed is released in us. Submission to the seed being planted in us is the "act" of intimacy. Accepting what you can't understand, believing in what you can't see . . .that is what intimacy is all about. It all boils down to embracing the faith that is in you.

Make sense? No? Perfect!! Then you're on the right path!! Laughing

29 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:56 am

cross-eyed

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Oh, by the way, I will often times go back and reread what "I" write as well . . .it's not stroking your own ego . . .often times things I write I've never heard so it excites me to see things in print that I've never heard or said before . . .I think it's more your mind coming into agreement with what your spirit leads you to write . . .

30 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:11 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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cross-eyed wrote:Oh, by the way, I will often times go back and reread what "I" write as well . . .it's not stroking your own ego . . .often times things I write I've never heard so it excites me to see things in print that I've never heard or said before . . .I think it's more your mind coming into agreement with what your spirit leads you to write . . .

But I was stroking my own ego and that is what I was shown. As to your previous post, actually I do understand that, my spirit walks in faith, but I am still somewhat in a mind set of wanting to understand, I am learning to just rest and let the understanding come through faith, but you know the natural man, it always wants to get ahead, it wants to be first in the race.

I am learning rest, to let my spirit (with His) to slow down my mind so they can walk together at the same pace.

It is understanding through faith, not faith through understanding.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

31 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:27 pm

todosan


jugghead wrote:deleted by me, jugghead, so that others would not be led astray

Now I know I have been walking with a true man of God today. Guess the content really doesn't matter does it?

32 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:33 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Thank you for those words Todd, they mean a lot to me.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

33 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:11 pm

todosan


Time to put some things together here. The glass is half full my friends (as opposed to half empty).

I was looking for words to describe this thread and this is what I ran across. I see us “craving a message that brings us to maturity”. The real issue here, if I might be so calloused, is that this topic has been rehearsed to death. All the points here are really good, but what do we do with it? Where does it all become impactful to our daily lives?

Well boys and girls, it is about to get real interesting. This is possibly the most powerful revelation that I have ever run across in my meager time as a Christian. This is what I have been waiting for over the last ten years, and it started to come last Friday by way of the Spirit (Steph found this). When I saw this thread this morning, I was astonished.

So I have a question for you; Why was the female was called Adam? Hmmm?

There is an ah-ha at the end of this that will change your life forever. It has just occurred to me that the whole creation has been subjected to futility. What was that futility? Struggle with sin? Need? Sickness? War? In all those things, it is possible to overcome them, so they are not really futile are they? No, futile means to me that your efforts are ineffective even though you try as hard as you can to deal with the situation. Like pushing a rope uphill. Creation was subjected to this futility on purpose, but what was it that was futile? As men and women born into the natural, we were born after the fall and subject to an existence that was not like God. Our strength would in no ways produce the things of God, no matter how hard we try, yet somehow, Jesus was very much man and He did not have the same struggles or wrestle with the same futility. He was different in countless ways, even though we have always been told that we were created in His image. Maybe, just for a second, we suppose that we were created in His image, but we are not today in His image? Is that possible, or have I fallen off the cliff?

Part of the revelation is this.

“When man was created in His image, they were actually one.” Like my grammar? That is either very poor English…or there is something great here. Most of us know that He created them both male and female and called them Adam, which means man. In the Hebrew, there are two forms of the word ‘Adam’, one singular and the other plural. The plural form is more correctly rendered mankind, and the singular as man.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Before the fall, the bible refers to man as mankind (them). It is not until after the fall that they, male and female, are separate. Before the fall, they are not separate, at least according to the way the word is given. Now here is a fast ball right down the pipe.

In the verse before the Lord give them dominion.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Dominion is given according to position they were in, and if you will, it is a spiritual position. In John 2:24, we learn that God is Spirit. (The bible says God is actually five different things, but Spirit is our focus here). Putting two and two together, for Adam to be in the image of God, he too would have to be spirit. One step further, both Adam and Even, being one would have to be spirit. Both the male and the female would have to be spirit. Some of you may now see where I am going…. I hope.

If they become separate, they are no longer in the image of God, which is what we see after the fall. The dominion given by God was given to Adam (plural) when they were in the image of God. To be in this image, one must be a functional male and female spirit. In God, we see the first glimpses of the Lord in Genesis as El Shaddai. Shad is the word for breast. El Shaddai is the “breasted one”. It is not until later that God is revealed as Yahweh, which is masculine, and has the connotation of father or disciplinarian. God himself is revealed as both nurturer and discipler; both feminine and masculine.

The struggle of fallen man is that a man or a woman struggles to do all the things they know are possible in Christ, but in the end are frustrated because it just doesn’t even really come together like they know is possible. It is because their very existence is missing something that they do not posses. Their internal man and internal women are separate, which cuts a person off from the mind of Christ and the dominion that was given to Adam (mankind) before the fall.

It is about to get real exciting.

2 Cor 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Look at this unbelievable imagery. Paul talks about the veil, which is the separation between soul and spirit. It is the separation BETWEEN the HOH and the sactuary. It is the separation BETWEEN your woman and your man. The god of this age knew exactly how to remove power from people. He blinded them so they could not see something. What was it? The true glory of Christ, WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD. The veil is what blinds us !!!!! It is what hid the glory of God on the face of Moses! It is what hides the light of the gospel. Christ of course, is in the image of God and therefore is not separate. He is the whole man. His soul and spirit, being in the image of God is not separate as ours has been. This is why He could become king. But more importantly, He is the firstborn of many brethern and through Him, this resotration will take place in us.

There are so many thoughts coming at me, I can’t catch them all. It is appointed for a man to leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife. We are appointed to do the same, so that our spirit and soul become one and in Christ, we regain that dominion.

And now the most misquoted verse of the whole bible.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Folks, the word of God does not divide soul and spirit. That is the biggest bunch of garbage I have ever heard. This verse is as plain as day. The word of God pierces TO THE DIVISION, which exists between the soul and the spirit. It is the veil which separates. The word of God, made flesh, in the image of Christ Jesus, Christ in you in the hope of Glory .. come on now, The Word of God in You, WHO is the image of God and the Glory of God, is able to remove the DIVISION between your man and you woman, so that you might take dominion in the earth once again. If they remain divided (veiled), you are not in the image of God and therefore not fit to receive that dominion.

Folks, this is pretty serious stuff. The world diminishes the role of women continuously. It is rampant in foreign countries and it stinks. It fills our churches and causes women to be subservient if they partake in the house of the Lord. This should not be. Nevertheless, it is a symptom of something much deeper. It speaks of the division between people’s soul and spirit. This is why the church only has few signs and a few miracles, but never takes dominion over its surroundings.

Ok, that is too much already, but this rabbit hole runs deep.

Last thought.

The removing of the division is the reuniting of the soul and spirit. It is a marriage.

Christ took a bride on the cross. Out of Adam’s side was taken Eve in a manner of speaking. On the cross, the Father forsook His son.. step1. Then He gives his mother to John (behold thy mother)…..step 2. He has left his mother and father, and now will cleave to His wife. Out of His side flowed blood and water, which is the sign of birth and the reason why those testimonies have survived to this day as the hidden bride of Christ. There are three that bear witness in the earth the Spirit (man) and the water and the blood (woman). Where there are two or three gathered in His name, He is there in the midst of them. (Matt 18:20) For crying out loud ! I don’t know to say.. That wasn’t my last thought.

A marriage must come. The marriage supper of the Lamb.

Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

Blessed indeed. What’s for dinner? Flesh. And how is it dealt with? By marriage.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i] and slave, both small and great.”

Why are they eating this supper? Cause there has been a marriage in heaven. Heaven is in you just like Christ is in you, the hope of Glory..

34 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:33 am

Guest


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Todd, that was fantastic. The sword that goes to the division. DUH. That is such a big revelation. Literally, its a cutting of the veil Smile

So I have been thinking on this topic of the image of God for a while. And I had come to the conclusion of the image is male and female together. Which is Christ. Now this is gonna get a little weird, so bear with me, and I am open to correction on this (and anything I share, I still see in part)...

Creation was subjected to futility. The wife is to be subjected to her husband. The husband to Christ, Christ to the Father (in 1 co 15). huptasso is the greek word used in all of those cases. So lets go from "small" to "large"

wife < husband < Christ < Father
all creation < Christ < Father

Ok now lets look at Gen 1:1 this is my literal translation

1 The first fruits - 2 birthed/carved out- 3 elohim -4 aleph tau/alpha omega -5 heavens/male -6 aleph tau/alpha omega-7 earth/female


First off its seven numbers. And the 4th is the alpha and omega. It is the center point of 7. Just like the gospels are the 4th section of the 7 sections of the bible in its original order, green is the center point of the visible spectrum of 7, which is the 4th of the 7 electromagnetic spectrums. That portion of the alpha omega is followed by the heavens and the 4th day of creation is the celestial bodies, it is the son of God the male. The 6th word speaks of man, the son of man, with the earth/female attached to that.

Christ is the image of God, male and female. Son of God/male, Son of Man/Female.

Now look at the first word, First fruits. Yes that is probably the more accurate translation even, as that is the most common translation of bereshiyth in the Hebrew. And who is the first fruits of creation? Christ.

The next word birthed/carved out is bara. Straight out of Strongs. Christ is the only begotten son. Why? He is begotten out of the Father. He is the alpha omega that is birthed out of the Father. Now I understand this is the part that may really burn a lot of people, but it doesn't mean that He was created. Because outside of time this occurs, its not bound by the laws of time and action--reaction. Time doesn't come into play until a little later. But anyway just as all of Genesis one is a roadmap of the new man being created/formed/refined what have you, which is really a miniature of the whole plan of creation and the entire Bible, Gen 1:1 is a miniature of Gen 1. Wheels within wheels. Or like the golden triangle, creating the spiral of life, the pattern is repeated over and over, from smaller to larger or vice versa.

So here we have The Word. All of creation was created by Him, through Him, and For Him. All things are held together by Him. He is the exact imprint of the invisible God. He only does what He see's His Father do. And so as the Father birthed the Son, who is male and female, the son birthed the creation. And I believe it was at this point : the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

We see the miniature of that, when Jesus birthed the church at the cross. But we would expect that because they are the same event in eternity. It is the center point of creation. Cardinal at Tentmaker gave a vision of the cross and all of creation bursting forth from it in both directions, both space and time. It is the big bang. Time is not actually linear when you are greater than a 4 dimensional being (God being at least 11D, since we know of 10), so don't get hung up on that.

When He said a seed must fall to the ground and die, He wasn't only speaking of the cross in 30 a.d. He was speaking of the lamb slain from the foundation. That is how the seed is hidden in every man. That is the unveiling of the mystery hidden from ages past. Christ the seed in you the hope of glory, AND the two shall become one flesh. Speaking of Christ and the church. AND speaking of Christ and the creation. AND the one new man. Remember BOTH of these are subjected to Christ. And then When the two have become one, all things subjected to the son, then the son shall subject Himself including all creation which is now one with Him, to the Father, then God will be all in all. Its a full reversal and a filling of the creation which is another good translation for bara "creation" in gen 1:1. Filling or fattening, God filling all of creation with Himself, through the process of the subjection.

Thats why no one can see the Father except the son, because He is the visible image of the invisible, and The son is the mediator between God and man.

So the reverse order of subjection is

Father>Son>Creation
or

Father>Son>Church

No one can see the Father except the son, and no one can see the son except the church, and that only at the removing of the division/futility between the inner court/church and HOH/Son. That is the unveiling of Christ in you the hope of glory, which does what? Transforms us into the image of the son. So when that happens we become a life giving spirit, which is like moving up the ladder. We move from death, the outer court, the sea. To life, the inner court adam became a living soul. To eternal life/life giving spirit in the HOH.

The creation was subjected to futility, in order that the creation would be set free into the glorious freedom of the sons of God. All of creation will be pulled up the ladder, like the ark rising at the flood. Death is washed away by the cleansing water of the Spirit pouring out on all flesh. And the creation is brought into the ark, which is Christ. 8 people 8 being the number of resurrection. The new creation.

Now the 7th day is rest. And Christ finished His works and entered His rest. What was His work? The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And we are to enter that rest, which is what? the unveiling of the sons of God, which is the removal of the division between soul and spirit. The birthing, the breaking of the hymen at the virgin birth. the blood and water being poured out, at the cross aka the foundation of the world. Thats why He came to redeem creation because creation was created out of Him. Like Eve was carved out of adam. And Christ out of Father. There is no separation between the Father and the Son, they are one.

John 17

“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (outside of time)

25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

The unfolding and folding.

Ok thats enough.

Blessings

35 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:07 am

todosan


A Full Mind continued (10/2/12)

Ok all, this is in the raw. I hope you understand that. This is something that the Lord is just putting in me. I have not rehearsed it or worked it out. I am praying for understanding and that it becomes a part of my life. I normally do not behave so transparently, but this is changing me forever.

Last Thursday a person who I really don’t like, gave me a prophecy that this would happen. I didn’t expect it so soon, but hey time is running out. LOL

Ok, seriously.

Phil 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

I have stated many times that Paul was not talking about the salvation experience. He was talking about a resurrection and an overcoming of the veiled mind. He says that plainly in that “as many as are mature”. This is not at the beginning of the walk, but as the believer progresses toward maturity.

What is “that for which” Christ has laid hold of me? Was it merely salvation? Was it merely to struggle through life and hang on by a couple of bloody fingernails to the day of rapture? I think not. It was that we be formed into His image. Paul had this down pat.

Galatians 4:19
My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,

6 days labor, one day rest. We labor to enter the rest. Selah.

The prize of the upward call is not directional. Most in rapture theology think heaven is up, but Genesis 1 clearly says where heaven is located. It is between the firmaments. It is right here. Unpack your bags, your flight has been cancelled. You are not going anywhere, directionally speaking.

The upward call is up in a spiritual sense, just like the fall was down in a spiritual sense. When Adam fell, I do not think he got a boo-boo on his elbow. This was allegorical. Therefore, I contend that the upward call is also. Paul’s hope was in the reconciliation that would take place at the beginning of the “Kingdom” Age.

Now some time ago, Kev and I were talking about being restored to the garden status. I came away thinking that God was going to do something greater than the garden… along the lines of an eighth day… but honestly, that never made real sense.

If we understand that in Christ the veil is removed, our spirit and soul become one, and we become the reconstructed image of God, then the dominion given in the garden will also be present.

On the cross, the thief told the Lord to remember him. This word means “put together again”. Obviously by now, we need put together again. Remember doesn’t necessarily mean think about him. What good would that do? NO! He needed to be RE-MEMBERED. RE-DONE. MEMBERS put back together again.. I am thinking of Humpty Dumpty.

Jesus says that day the thief will be with Him in Paradise. The word paradise means a park or GARDEN!!!! Or an EDEN!!! For the thief to come into His Kingdom, he would have to be put back together again in Eden. When Paul was caught up into heaven, it was the third heaven.. Same word PARADISE. Is anyone listening?

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

And now you know what is being overcome…. It is the separation between your man and your woman. The tree of life is Christ and the paradise is the Kingdom of God, which by the way is in you.

Need more proof? The veil is taken away in Christ. No more separation in us as we REMEMBERED in His image.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

I think communion will take on a different meaning from now on if you are doing it in rememberance of Him… just a thought.

So this morning I woke up to the song you all have probably heard.. in it the chorus goes “Ready Yourself, ready yourself”

Song is by Casting Crowns

Check this out:

Lord I wanna feel Your heart
See the world through Your eyes
I wanna be your hands and feet
I wanna live a life that leads

Ready yourself, Ready yourself
Let us shine the light of Jesus in the darkest night
Ready yourself, Ready yourself
May the powers of darkness tremble as our praises rise


Sounds like Christ in you, eh? I looked over at the clock and the time was 5:55 am.. Not a coincidence by any stretch of the imagination.

A quick look for gematria of 555 and this is what I find:

“And Enoch walked” Gen 5:24
“The Eagle” Prov 30:19
“The Rulers”
“The Kingdoms of nations” Isa 13:4
“Before the King” Est 1:11

555 and 550 are numbers that have to do with rule or ruling. I wrote elsewhere that no one will ever rule and reign with Christ unless they have the mind of Christ. It is essential that a person thinks they way God thinks, or they will be in contradiction to Him. Can you see anyone representing Him in the earth if they are not in agreement with Him? I don’t think so. It is not enough, however, to merely get along with God. It is a transformation of the mind that proves what the will of God is.

Ready yourselves.

36 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:26 am

todosan


Jeremy wrote:
No one can see the Father except the son, and no one can see the son except the church, and that only at the removing of the division/futility between the inner court/church and HOH/Son. That is the unveiling of Christ in you the hope of glory, which does what? Transforms us into the image of the son. So when that happens we become a life giving spirit, which is like moving up the ladder. We move from death, the outer court, the sea. To life, the inner court adam became a living soul. To eternal life/life giving spirit in the HOH.

End Quote

I don't know what to say. But my baby lept...

37 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:00 pm

klm4jc


heh.....now I can see why David's temple didn't have a veil. He got it. I like where this is going. I still stand by my thought that He is doing something greater in Christ than He did in Adam but in the end it is really just the beginning anyway.

38 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:36 pm

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39 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:12 pm

todosan


klm4jc wrote:heh.....now I can see why David's temple didn't have a veil. He got it. I like where this is going. I still stand by my thought that He is doing something greater in Christ than He did in Adam but in the end it is really just the beginning anyway.


Yes, the garden as a allegory is a picture of the end from the beginning. That is possibly the whole point, and if so, then Christ is greater by virute that through Him and entire people are made into His image...A case can be made that Adam and Eve together as one were spirit, until they were separated and placed in a body. This people who are overcomers, become manifest in the flesh and put to death the deeds of the body.

40 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:13 pm

klm4jc


todosan wrote:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Folks, the word of God does not divide soul and spirit. That is the biggest bunch of garbage I have ever heard. This verse is as plain as day. The word of God pierces TO THE DIVISION, which exists between the soul and the spirit. It is the veil which separates. The word of God, made flesh, in the image of Christ Jesus, Christ in you in the hope of Glory .. come on now, The Word of God in You, WHO is the image of God and the Glory of God, is able to remove the DIVISION between your man and you woman, so that you might take dominion in the earth once again. If they remain divided (veiled), you are not in the image of God and therefore not fit to receive that dominion.


Okay, so I am missing something. Where does the flesh come in with regards to the veil then. Heb 10:20 says "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"

Isn't the veil his flesh? Is that what is separating the or dividing the soul and the spirit? Or is the division something else? Perhaps I am not following correctly this line of thought.

41 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:25 pm

cross-eyed

avatar
I'll just throw this out there . . .

It's the carnality being divided from the soul and the Word is piercing the conflict between carnality and spirit within us, bringing healing where there once had been warring and division. Leading to marriage/oneness between soul and spirit. Creating the atmosphere for reproduction of his nature in us, and now through us.

42 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:41 am

todosan


klm4jc wrote:
todosan wrote:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Folks, the word of God does not divide soul and spirit. That is the biggest bunch of garbage I have ever heard. This verse is as plain as day. The word of God pierces TO THE DIVISION, which exists between the soul and the spirit. It is the veil which separates. The word of God, made flesh, in the image of Christ Jesus, Christ in you in the hope of Glory .. come on now, The Word of God in You, WHO is the image of God and the Glory of God, is able to remove the DIVISION between your man and you woman, so that you might take dominion in the earth once again. If they remain divided (veiled), you are not in the image of God and therefore not fit to receive that dominion.


Okay, so I am missing something. Where does the flesh come in with regards to the veil then. Heb 10:20 says "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"

Isn't the veil his flesh? Is that what is separating the or dividing the soul and the spirit? Or is the division something else? Perhaps I am not following correctly this line of thought.


I think Nathan was right on top of it..Keep in mind the veil hides the glory of God. The veil in the temple hid the shekinah glory. The veil in Moses hid the glory that was on his face. Christ is the expresses image of God, hidden behind a veil.

2 Corinthians 4:4
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

The veil was indeed his flesh. "Through the veil" is a double meaning. The veil had to be torn so the two rooms become one. The HOH and the sanctuary. This is again the soul and spirit. The other meaning is "by means of the veil" referring to His sacrifice that detroyed death's power. Through death He destroyed the one having the power of death. Heb 2:14.

So through the use of his flesh He consecrated us. The flesh hiding the spirit man who is the expressed image of God....wow.

43 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:49 am

todosan


cross-eyed wrote:I'll just throw this out there . . .

It's the carnality being divided from the soul and the Word is piercing the conflict between carnality and spirit within us, bringing healing where there once had been warring and division. Leading to marriage/oneness between soul and spirit. Creating the atmosphere for reproduction of his nature in us, and now through us.

The carnal mind is at emnity with God. HOWEVER, it is not carnality that is the cause. It is the result. The woman (soul) needs to listen to her husband (spirit) and not speak in church (you). That is not meant to offend, but to interpret an abused verse. If the soul becomes one with the spirit, it is no longer carnal by means of submission, i.e. marriage.

The issue is not carnality, although carnality is at war with the spirit. The issue is the division. If we deal with the division, then the carnality is also dealt with. Keep in mind Nathan, that for 2000 years of Pentecost the church has been preaching against carnality to almost no avail. It caused the crusades and countless martyrs. It is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance.

Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

It is also the goodness of God that causes the 7 days of creation to come to pass and be fulfilled. That is what Moses witnessed in the cleff of the Rock, who was Christ.

Oh and you are 100% correct. The removal of the veil, the hymen, is what causes reproduction in the natural and also the spiritual. God was always looking for offspring. It is the overcomers that will bear children in the Kingdom Age. How do I know? When the woman of the law (Leah) ceased having children, the ewe Lamb (Rachel) started to give birth. She was baren the whole time the woman of the law was birthing, concubines included. Then came the chosen .... The law is a veil and the veil we know must be pierced as He was.

44 the bridegroonm and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:49 am

Hibbs


But isn't the glory still hidden behind the veil of flesh? Somehow in all of these great revelations it seems to me like we have lost the place of the cross and Jesus words: "Unless you lose your life for my sake and the gospel's..." The second "Adam" demonstrated the principle of the Christ. The "Christos" is the Anointed one. Jesus stated about the woman with the alabaster box that "this woman has anointed me for burial"...recognizing His impending death. Rachel had to die for Benjamin to come forth. John the Baptist...the most righteous born of woman...had to lose his head so that the least in the kingdom would be greater. Adam in the garden was a seed planted for the purpose of death so that a harvest might come forth.

Why does Paul say that if there is no resurrection, we are of all people most miserable? Isn't it because once the woman has been taken from the side, she is saved in childbearing 1 Tim 2:15. She cannot again become one with Adam (and thus make Adam complete) she can only bring forth a son and pass on. It is in dying that we live.

I, for one, am not interested in going back to the garden and Adam's dominion. Christ's dominion is greater and delivers from the curse. The fall did not take place when Eve was still in Adam but after, when spirit and soul were divided. [Just had a thought....Eve was not blamed...the soul part or the flesh, was not attributed to be at fault...but rather Adam. Looked at that way, is it even unjust for the consequence to be placed upon the "Spirit" in the manifestation of the Son? After all wasn't mankind subjected to futility because of WHOM???] The point of the exercise is not to preserve the soul but for the soul to be the provision for a brand new life. Nature only demonstrates kingdom principles and all of nature demonstrates newness only comes with the passing of the old...no matter how hard we try to preserve it.

If we recognize that the glory of the spirit is still veiled behind the veil of our flesh, then we are much more willing to embrace our cross and allow a new life to come forth, carrying a new name and with a white stone to be part of a new and living temple. When we think that the culmination of the plan is Adam's dominion, it seems to me that we are missing the point of all of history and the process of the ages. I may be dense, and I recognize that I can be stubborn, but to my mind there is a snare when we see ourselves as more than we are. While it may not be "robbery to be equal with God" on one hand, the mind of Christ becomes of no reputation and takes the form of a servant. We have this treasure in earthen vessels. In celebrating the treasure lets not get too focused on the vessel.

45 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:55 am

cross-eyed

avatar
Several years ago, there was an elderly lady in our church that blew my socks off with that little revelation about the connection between the veil and the hymen. The significance there is the reason why there's so much emphasis on a virgin birth.

In the natural process, the hymen is torn from an "outside" force. But when Jesus was born, the hymen was torn from an inside force . . . pretty cool once you get over the shock of what we're talking about here.

46 teh bridegroonm and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:03 pm

Hibbs


Not to be too carnal sounding, but your last comment reminded me of the movie "Men In Black." Inside a human form was an other-wordly creature that would manifest at times. Ultimately, the serpent sheds its skin and a new one emerges, a caterpillar decomposes into green slime (with two eyeballs) and recomposes into a butterfly, etc. We have the DNA of the Seed of Christ which is forming a new nature within. The "image" or "shadow" or type and similitude can never demonstrate the manifestation. Adam was created in the "image" of God...we are being changed into the very nature and substance of God from the inside out....talk about a mind blowing experience.

47 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:23 pm

todosan


Hi Mark,

I always like the way you comment, becuase it really causes some deep consideration...

When we look at this as a trip back to Eden, then you are making a lot of valid points. There are fundamental problems with Adam's dominion, and for one, he didn't remain in it !!!! I believe someone else asked the question a while ago, what keeps us from falling once we inherit the promise? Selah.

There is a critical observation here that will offend all of our tradition. I like that and I am struggling with it. I told you that this was in the raw. You are going to half to walk with me two miles, my friend.

Only two "men" have ever walked on the earth in the image of God. One was Adam and the other Christ. The glorified Christ, perhaps apart from the flesh, was only seen for an instant and only by a few people. There really is no account of Adam, but we know that both were in the image of God. If the garden is a natural account, then was Adam really in the flesh?

God is spirit. God is light. God is love. God is a consuming fire. God is One. So what was His image? This lends itself not to make graven images I think, because all are false. How do you make a real one?

You don't. He does.

What if Adam only had diminion for a very short period of time, so that God could reveal the end from the beginning? I wouldn't be so quick to say I am not interested in returning to Adam's dominion. I appreciate what you said entirely, but I need to think about that more...What if Christ's dominion was prophesied in Adam? and that pointing to what is to come?

True all things must pass through death. I contend that our true death is carried out in one dimension by the soul uniting with the spirit. When ever did the carnal mind give up without screaming?



48 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:59 pm

Hibbs


Hibbs wrote:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, H6754 after our likeness:H1823

Unless we look harder at the words: "image" or "likeness" I think that we will not understand that Adam in the garden is not the Christ on the seventh day of the 7,000 years. One day with Lord is like or as a 1,000 years. "Like" or "as" are similes and are not the same as the real. Adam was not God and probably knew it for he walked with God in the cool of the day. As the moon to the sun, he could reflect the light of the sun but was not himself the light.

The word for image is:

H6754
צלם
tselem
BDB Definition:
1) image
1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
1b) image, likeness (of resemblance)
1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (figuratively)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root meaning to shade
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1923a

An image or picture can show a lot about what is pictured or shown but is not itself the same thing as the object pictured. So too Adam, he had "breath" and the tree of life was available to him but as even nature declares, the seed must fall in order to die and regenerate. Adam was the seed of humanity and carried in his loins the DNA of all but Jesus. His "fall" was not accidental but was predetermined as part of the process of creation...a process that I believe is ongoing to this very day.

Look also at the word "likeness":


H1823
דּמוּת
demûth
BDB Definition:
1) likeness, similitude (noun feminine)
2) in the likeness of, like as (adverb)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1819
Same Word by TWOT Number: 437a

Once again a word meaning "like" or "as" and not the same. Being centered in self is the issue of all of the devil's temptations. God...God who is love itself...has determined to have a people who will give Him pleasure because their nature will be His nature. They will think not of themselves but will be those that lay down their lives for others. Becoming one with God is not the process of returning to the garden...as lovely as that was. It is the process of making the wilderness into a garden through love. We are becoming one even as Jesus and His Father are one. That is a different ballgame from what Adam knew. Our destiny is into a realm that is exceedingly, abundantly above all that we can ask or even imagine. It is far far above the realm of the mind of man for eye has not seen nor ear heard the things that God has prepared for those who love Him. As glorious as Adam was in the garden, there is a surpassing glory...our God has saved the best for last.


I posted this earlier on the Matrix thread. I think it helps in our discussion at this point.

49 Bridegroom and Bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:17 pm

Hibbs


I appreciate all of the points that have been made...they all contribute to a fuller understanding of what God is doing in us. At the same time, I am concerned that sometimes in searching for truth, we can cross over a fine line that again makes us susceptible to the deceitfulness that is in all of our Adamic hearts. "I" so want to be right..."I" so want to know God..."I" so want to help others see truth...that in the process the I but not I becomes blurred. Is there a truth that the two-edged sword pierces to the "division" and breaks down the middle wall of partition??? You betcha (and I don't recall recognizing it that way until Todd pointed it out). Is the issue of soul and spirit all that clear or simple? I don't think so...otherwise why would we be told that the spirit of the man is the candle of the Lord? It is only as the Word is quickened to divide us that we can be able to "rightly divide the word".

Cell division is multiplication. Death leads to increase. In decrease, we increase. In losing our lives, we find them. How can these things be rectified??? Not with our carnal mind or with our natural understanding. But God is revealing them to us by His Spirit.

We are all working with "raw" data seeking to understand and convey a truth that only God can demonstrate (and, I believe, is about to demonstrate) in a people called Christ. They do not think more highly of themselves than they ought but they are free from condemnation and know that they have been given the spirit of adoption and can come boldly to the throne of grace. In all of these things, however, they have learned that the Glory is their rear guard and that it is seen in their "hind parts" as they follow Christ. No flesh can ever glory. It is not for Adam or Eve to experience the glory that has been reserved for God and His Christ.

50 Re: the bridegroom and the bride on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:26 pm

Hibbs


Lastly Todd, I do think that everything in Genesis was a prophetic beginning that spoke even to the end. Revelation brings us full circle in that we are told that Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Adam probably saw even as Paul and Daniel but a foreshadowing is not the "express image" or manifestation of that prophecied. So often the thing prophecied and the thing itself bear little resemblance (recall Peter's "this is that" prophecied by Joel and Joseph's dreams etc.) such that we only see in part. But...all of these exercises are helping us come into the time of seeing clearly. When we see Him as He is (presently) we will be like Him for we will only be able to see Him clearly when we are in Him. He has put Himself in us and the veil is being torn even as we struggle with these issues in this forum.

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