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"to be sin"

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26 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:34 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Scherryl wrote:Ok, is it just me, or does anyone else think it's raining Manna in this place?

I Love, Love, Love, this sort of thinking. At first I couldn't quite get the graph thing in my mind the way you were describing it, I had it weaving over top in a zig-zag pattern making seven points, and was seeing that at every point that it crossed made purple, Royalty, see never assume right lol, that's where I thought you were going, boy was I wrong. Not only that but was also seeing the serpent thingy on the pole, I can't remember what they call that for the Physician, but anyhow.

At the end I got it. And seeing the cross like you said and to me it has 4 points which like you said speaks of Creation, it stretches out to "All" of Creation. Love it!

But I can't also help seeing the Woof and the Warp too, in our Garments, that are the Righteousness of Christ, again the 2 opposites (+) coming together forming the Cross, and clothing us thereby.

Good stuff!!!

Blessings

I'm ignorant when you talk about the Woof and the Warp, what are they and what are they supposed to represent?



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

27 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:46 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Oh my, you must have missed that in the e-mail loop.

I'll post it as a separate topic. You gotta see this.

http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

28 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:51 am

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Scherryl wrote:Oh my, you must have missed that in the e-mail loop.

I'll post it as a separate topic. You gotta see this.

Yes I did and thank you



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

29 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:39 pm

todosan


jugghead wrote:
Anyway, I agree with using some phrases is misleading, since any phrase can have a different meaning for one compared to another.
Todd, if I am understanding you right, (in my terminology), it is not "a dying to self" but a "transformation of self" ........ The self remains intact, but it is transformed from one condition to another.
…Rick

I really push back on casual phrases, because I have found that so many things that Christians say in Pentecost are just not biblically correct. Over the years, we have come to understand that it is fairly important to go to the bible and get the correct view. Here is an example:

People often say we have no idea what is coming or what awaits us in heaven because of this verse:

1Cor 2:9
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

But the very next verse says:

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

Point is, trust but verify…

So the self never really dies, does it? I mean it seems like we are missing a point when we boil it all down to the basic behavior of denying the things that our minds and wills dictate to us. If we merely deny that which drives us, we are in denial. The death of the self centered motives never really happens, it just goes dormant and remains suppressed until it returns with a vengeance. Ask me how I know…. Jesus gave us the answer of course, as you say….

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

The renewing of the mind follows the restoring of the spirit of the person. As the mind is renewed unto the likeness of Jesus, the body then begins to manifest the change as well until death is fully overcome.

I will tell you something here that I doubt you have ever heard before. There is a place in Christ where the desire for sin will cease. This is the true “death to self” in my opinion, which is so elusive. It takes place in the mind and is the result of transformation. It happens because we consume the bread from heaven.

Let’s be clear, following rules and ordinances did not lead to eternal life for the Pharisees any more than it does today in the legalistic circles. The iner character has to change, which we would all agree. The outside white washed tombs do not possess anything living inside. Jesus was clear that something internal had to happen.

Heb 9:9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—

No matter how much they performed the symbolic ritual, their inner mind could not be changed from the fallen nature. I will go farther; nothing they could do on their own could effect this change.

But there is something, or someone who can… right?

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

When the conscience is cleansed from dead works, it departs from the works that are not in faith, and are in contradiction to Christ. Thus it departs from sin, because everything that is not of faith is sin.

This is the mind that Paul ministered out of.

2 Tim 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day,

Do we have a pure conscience? Is it possible? Obviously it is. The preaching of condemnation of sin (the law as rules for living), makes the listener aware of their personal transgression. It inflames the conscience and disqualified the listener from receiving the Grace that is necessary to transform the mind. The preaching of the gospel (good news) does the opposite. It cleanses the conscience, mortifying the deeds of the flesh, nailing them to the cross with the ordinances that revealed the transgression to begin with. If our conscience is not cleansed, we are not hearing the correct message. The preaching of the gospel conforms the mind and does not alienate it.

Why is this so important? As a man thinketh, so is he. We act out of what we believe, and almost never act opposite of what we believe. Therefore, justification is by faith, for we must believe to be justified. If our conscience betrays us, we are condemned in our own thinking. We are dual minded, and we struggle with every step. Our works become dead, because they are not of faith, but of compulsion. The very same compulsion that we saw in the ministry of the Pharisee, who was trying to be something that was otherwise given to them without being earned.

Sin removes any chance of us being able to earn our own way apart from God. So once we have been born into sin, we are lost on purpose so that we might be saved on purpose. Not by might, or by power, but by the Spirit of the Living God. Of course, He addresses the facts that we have transgressed by removing it from our conscience, enabling us to partake of the promise not on our own accord, but by the measure of His will for our lives. We become inheritors by His judgment alone.

Is there really a death to self as we were taught in religion? Well the mind certainly must change. However, it has not changed if we merely deny the impulses and suppress them down deep. If the desire remains, the self isn’t dead. It never will be until the pending doom of an uncleansed conscience is removed from us.


30 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:08 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Todd,
That was Excellent, I don't think I've ever heard it explained quite like that before. I Like!

It just sounds right. Keeper!!!

Do we have a pure conscience? Is it possible? Obviously it is. The preaching of condemnation of sin (the law as rules for living), makes the listener aware of their personal transgression. It inflames the conscience and disqualified the listener from receiving the Grace that is necessary to transform the mind. The preaching of the gospel (good news) does the opposite. It cleanses the conscience, mortifying the deeds of the flesh, nailing them to the cross with the ordinances that revealed the transgression to begin with. If our conscience is not cleansed, we are not hearing the correct message. The preaching of the gospel conforms the mind and does not alienate it.

Why is this so important? As a man thinketh, so is he. We act out of what we believe, and almost never act opposite of what we believe. Therefore, justification is by faith, for we must believe to be justified. If our conscience betrays us, we are condemned in our own thinking. We are dual minded, and we struggle with every step. Our works become dead, because they are not of faith, but of compulsion. The very same compulsion that we saw in the ministry of the Pharisee, who was trying to be something that was otherwise given to them without being earned.

It's All good, but these paragraphs really jump out at me.
When I read stuff like this from you guys, I think, I am so blessed to be apart of these conversations. I just don't think it gets any better than this. (on the net anyway).

Blessings

http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

31 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:45 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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I am one who trys to reword things in my mind to better understand something, it was not until Scherryl replied that the words came.

In what Todd said and what Scerryl highlighted:

Do we have a pure conscience? Is it possible? Obviously it is. The preaching of condemnation of sin (the law as rules for living), makes the listener aware of their personal transgression. It inflames the conscience and disqualified the listener from receiving the Grace that is necessary to transform the mind. The preaching of the gospel (good news) does the opposite. It cleanses the conscience, mortifying the deeds of the flesh, nailing them to the cross with the ordinances that revealed the transgression to begin with. If our conscience is not cleansed, we are not hearing the correct message. The preaching of the gospel conforms the mind and does not alienate it.

I see it as, we do not approach someone and say, "You are a sinner in need of forgiveness", what we say in the good news is, "Did you know you are a forgiven sinner?" Clearing their conscience before we even say another word.

It is not an accusation, it is a vindication. And that makes it possible to continue. Because the next thing we would talk about is not that they have to first obey the law, they first have to understand it and the reason for it.

It is about us bringing understanding to a person, not accusations.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

32 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:46 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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I am one who trys to reword things in my mind to better understand something, it was not until Scherryl replied that the words came.

In what Todd said and what Scherryl highlighted:

Do we have a pure conscience? Is it possible? Obviously it is. The preaching of condemnation of sin (the law as rules for living), makes the listener aware of their personal transgression. It inflames the conscience and disqualified the listener from receiving the Grace that is necessary to transform the mind. The preaching of the gospel (good news) does the opposite. It cleanses the conscience, mortifying the deeds of the flesh, nailing them to the cross with the ordinances that revealed the transgression to begin with. If our conscience is not cleansed, we are not hearing the correct message. The preaching of the gospel conforms the mind and does not alienate it.

I see it as, we do not approach someone and say, "You are a sinner in need of forgiveness", what we say in the good news is, "Did you know you are a forgiven sinner?" Clearing their conscience before we even say another word.

It is not an accusation, it is a vindication. And that makes it possible to continue. Because the next thing we would talk about is not that they have to first obey the law, they first have to understand it and the reason for it.

It is about us bringing understanding to a person, not accusations.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

33 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:27 pm

todosan


I think that was a great example. We are supposed to read the bible to find out who we are, not who we are not. All my upbringing, I felt condemned by what they were telling me, and frankly, wanted nothing to do with church. You won't run to a Daddy if He is about to punish you. This is the fear of death.

BUT CHRIST, through death, destroyed the one having the power of death, that is the devil, and delivered those who all their lives were subject to bondage through the fear of death. (Heb 2:14)

Now death has lost its sting in some measure, and will continue to be overcome. Daddy isn't mad at me. He dances over me with rejoicing and singing. I am wonderfully made. I have a calling, a future, a purpose, .....a destiny. That is good news. These are the reason I came to Christ. It is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance.

34 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:41 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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todosan wrote:I think that was a great example. We are supposed to read the bible to find out who we are, not who we are not. All my upbringing, I felt condemned by what they were telling me, and frankly, wanted nothing to do with church. You won't run to a Daddy if He is about to punish you. This is the fear of death.

BUT CHRIST, through death, destroyed the one having the power of death, that is the devil, and delivered those who all their lives were subject to bondage through the fear of death. (Heb 2:14)

Now death has lost its sting in some measure, and will continue to be overcome. Daddy isn't mad at me. He dances over me with rejoicing and singing. I am wonderfully made. I have a calling, a future, a purpose, .....a destiny. That is good news. These are the reason I came to Christ. It is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance.

Thank you Father for that affirmation through your servant Todd, may we continue in Your way. Amen



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

35 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:09 pm

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jugghead wrote:I see it as, we do not approach someone and say, "You are a sinner in need of forgiveness", what we say in the good news is, "Did you know you are a forgiven sinner?" Clearing their conscience before we even say another word.

It is not an accusation, it is a vindication. And that makes it possible to continue. Because the next thing we would talk about is not that they have to first obey the law, they first have to understand it and the reason for it.

It is about us bringing understanding to a person, not accusations.


This is it!!! And it is not just for "christians." This is how I am able to share with my muslim friends as Brothers and not have them dismiss me offhand.

1Co 9:19-22 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; (20) and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; (21) to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; (22) to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Or, as Nathan's Message puts it:

1Co 9:19-22 Even though I am free of the demands and expectations of everyone, I have voluntarily become a servant to any and all in order to reach a wide range of people: (20) religious, nonreligious, (21) meticulous moralists, loose-living immoralists, (22) the defeated, the demoralized--whoever. I didn't take on their way of life. I kept my bearings in Christ--but I entered their world and tried to experience things from their point of view. I've become just about every sort of servant there is in my attempts to lead those I meet into a God-saved life.

I don't hesitate to even tell them I think I am muslim, which means in their language "submitted." Nothing to be ashamed of there!

36 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:34 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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I have found that Love and acceptance is pretty much Universal in any language, for those who is able to receive it.

Blessings


http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

37 Re: "to be sin" on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:44 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Good stuff David, it brings me joy that God could use that example to show both of us what we each came to understand individually.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

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