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1 "to be sin" on Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:58 am

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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I have struggled with this for a long time, how to understand this phrase. The other day while I was meditating on this, the word "accountability" came to mind, as I continued to think about this, it was if Christ took on the responsibility of sin, took the blame for the sin of mankind.

It is as if He took the blame for telling the first lie to Eve, this would certainly explain why He compared Himself to the lifting up of the serpent on the pole in the wilderness.

Any other thoughts on this?



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

2 Re: "to be sin" on Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:42 pm

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jugghead wrote:Any other thoughts on this?


My thoughts? This is not exactly another thought, but I think that this line of discussion we have been on these past few days could not have come at a better time in my case. How can I be justified in judging another for my own sins? And now, how would I possibly be qualified in judging my brother or sister for a sin that Christ Himself is accountable for? Your exploration here doesn't really change anything we have been taught from the beginning, but it does lay it all out in vivid technicolor and that is what most of us need these days.

Why am I thinking this is so timely? My wife has sued me for divorce. The sheriff came by yesterday (first day of fall, really?) with the papers. I get to employ ALL of this now in real time. I don't know how to act, I just know that I can't blame Hollis. Well, I can, it just wouldn't be profitable. We've been fighting this battle for the past 21 years. My perception is that she wants to dominate me and I am just not a good candidate for that. I love love and am not motivated by fear in the least. I am sure that I am just infuriating to bullies. We had a rocky start, especially given my affinity for drink and drugs, and we have made some poor decisions along the way. I am about a year sober and have been out of work for the better part of that year.

I don't know what the Lord has in mind for us. I am inclined not to plead or even to talk about this, in fact I tore up the divorce papers after I got them yesterday. They seemed to be just all that much trash to me. I mentioned this to Todd yesterday but haven't told anyone else. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. I think this is the Lord's battle and I am certain that such a thought would infuriate Hollis if I told her. Her focus for the past few years has been on money and more practical matters, something we haven't had enough of. Yes, we always have food, shelter and clothing, but still in debt from the early years and nothing extra for vacations and such. I know we could have done a lot better, and have blamed her on many levels for what I have believed to be her lack of spiritual focus. I have seen her as "loving money," loving strife, loving self, and unfaithful in marriage and unfaithful to God. My judgments, every one of them. How could I even see them if they were not in me? And how can I be upset, knowing that Christ Himself is responsible for them?

Now I don't judge or blame her for anything.

So here I am. I am OK with this. I just don't know what to do. No money, no place to move, no inspiration toward a new direction. Only "seek ye first the kingdom of God." And a knowing that this is sufficient for us. I need a job, speaking in the natural. I want a new beginning. I am believing that this is the direction we are headed with this investigation. . .

3 Re: "to be sin" on Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:14 pm

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First of all, let me say David, I am so sorry to hear of this with you, I know it must be hard, you will continually be in my prayers.

My thoughts on the subject as I have come to understand sin, is that, sin is a Nature, the things we do, the choices we make are not the sin itself, it's just the actions of the nature that we are in.
There is the old Nature, and there is the New Nature.
Or the Old man, the New man, one is the first Adam, the other is The Last Adam.

This to me, is what Jesus was made to be, it is the Nature of man, that He took upon Himself so that we could become The Nature of The Father. Nailing to His cross, overcoming it. This is the only thing that enables us to walk in and know the Nature of our Father, is because He did this for us, and now is causing us to walk in it. That's why it is impossible to change anyone, no matter how hard we try or want them to change, it is just not in their nature (or their own ability) to do so without Christ.

That's why the word "Name" in scripture is so important for us to understand. Jesus said He came in His Father's Name, He came to show us The Father. If you ask anything in my Name (Nature, character, and Authority) you shall have it. It means so much more than just tacking on at the end of our Prayers "in Jesus Name" doesn't it?

Name means:

on'-om-ah
From a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a “name” (literally or figuratively), (authority, character): - called, (+ sur-) name (-d).

Nature:

The essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized

The complex of emotional and intellectual attributes that determine a person's characteristic actions and reactions

And now with all this, we understand that when it is said thou shalt not take The Lord thy God's NAME in vain, look at how much more meaning it has. It would be like a woman, when she marry' s and takes the Husbands name, and then turns around and slanders that Name, or runs it through the mud, so to speak. So with Christ's Righteousness/Nature imparted to us, it causes us to keep that Name untouched by the other Nature.

Just my two cents worth.

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4 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:14 pm

todosan


To be sin... Weird wording for sure.

There is a difference between dying for you, and dying as you. The spiritual growth of a Christian follows these lines of revelation. There are many many ways to learn and take on knowledge and understanding, but I am convinced that the symbolic grade we are in is directly related to the internalization of the work of the Holy Spirit.

At Passover, we see a man dying on the cross for our sins, but when we approach Tabernacles, we see ourselves dying on that cross.

At Passover, we see a man dying for us, but at Tabernalces, we see a man dying as us.

There is a key in the bread. The bread of course is the bread that comes from heaven, which is Christ. We all know that, but take it further. The bread at both Passover and Tabernacles has no leaven, which is sin. At Passover, the unleavened bread represents the sinless life of Christ, but at Tabernacles it represents the cleansed life of the Body of Christ, which is by way of Chirst in you. Interestingly, Pentecost has leavened bread. I think that is because we receive the Spirit in spite of our struggle with sin. Point being that we then are baptised with the fire of God to bake or kill the leaven and prepare us for Tabernacles.

When God wrote the verse where He was made sin, it was not an accidental wording. In reality, He was not merely just sin bearer, which would be a substitute. He was made sin embodied. We of course were made righteous by the same act. Our position was established long before the manifestation. We are the righteousness of Christ, by account of all sin being punished.

There had to be a way that we would be punished for sin, without killing our bodies. If we had been punished according to what was required, we would have surely died. Most obviously, if we are dead, we serve no real purpose any longer in the earth. Therefore, the requirement of the law would have to be kept without destroying the natural man. Indeed it was through the miracle of the cross.

Christ in us is mutual. He is in us, and we are in Him and He is in the Father, to quote John. Christ in us is the hope of Glory. BUT, when you step into Christ today, you step into Christ for all time including the time He spent on the cross. It is there at that very moment that all sin was punished severly. For us to be in Him, the mystery of the gospel, we take on the punishment. A strange mystery indeed. It is this revelation that comes at Tabernacles, where we internalize the work of the cross to the extent that we fully believe that all sin is dealt with. By faith this is come to pass.

So, when we touch Him, like the lady with the issue of blood, he is made unlcean and we are made whole. It isn't theoratical. It isn't symbolic. It isn't something coming to pass in the future. It was finished. He was made the sin of our transgression. We were made the righteousness of God's Christ, and that will never make sense until you get your head up out of time.


5 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:57 pm

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That was really good Todd..

The Law's punishment for sin is Death, I find this a fascinating subject. For one, the scripture that says: We were Crucified "WITH" Christ. Well to me if we were "With" Him, then our death had to take place 2,000 yrs ago.

We were With Him. No doubt a Death did take place, the question is what kind of Death? Or should I say, what is Death to God?

This is what brought it all about for me to understand, that it isn't the body were talking about, but must be the Death of Self, which is the first Nature/image.

I still wrestle with the scripture that says:
It is appointed for man once to die, but after this the Judgement. And have heard all kinds of interpretations of it.

But I ask, can a man Truly be Judged if he is not quickened First? What good would it do to Judge a man who is spiritually dead? That's what I think that it means, and that's what I think that Christ has done for us. Does that make sense I hope?

When we like you've stated come into Tabernacles and begin to understand we were there with Him. We recongnize our Death in Him, and now Judgement can take it's rightful place in our lives to transform us.

Blessings

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6 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:06 pm

todosan


Like I said, you have to get your head up out of time. Time is lower than eternity.

Every man has an appointed death to endure. This death is the true judgment, not a fire torture chamber in the center of the earth as some teach. It is what God said would happen. In the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.

Death is at work until we take from the tree of life, who is Christ. This judgment results in physical death of the body, but for those who believe, there is resurrection from the dead, either at the end of the church age or the end of the Kingdom Age..

There is really no death to self, as is always taught. The more that I learn, the farther away this idea is to me. It is the death of Adam. Adam is sentenced to die and God's word has never changed in this matter. In Christ, we find that death for ourselves so that we might live. Quite the paradox in my opinion. This is why Paul could write that he was crucified with Christ.

If one is not crucified with Christ, then there is the fearful expectation of punishment in the future. You must experience a death, either in your past or in your future. It is for you to decide. This is why I said you had to get out of time, so that those verses make sense.

7 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:36 pm

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Quote:
There is really no death to self, as is always taught. The more that I learn, the farther away this idea is to me. It is the death of Adam. Adam is sentenced to die and God's word has never changed in this matter. In Christ, we find that death for ourselves so that we might live. Quite the paradox in my opinion. This is why Paul could write that he was crucified with Christ. End Quote:



ok,.....So your saying that the death of self, is not the Adamic Nature? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Because I thought they were the same.

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8 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:41 pm

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Quote:

Death is at work until we take from the tree of life, who is Christ. This judgment results in physical death of the body, but for those who believe, there is resurrection from the dead, either at the end of the church age or the end of the Kingdom Age.. End Quote:

I don't understand this either. Maybe you could expound a little bit more?

Blessings

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9 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:26 pm

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Scherryl wrote:
Quote:
There is really no death to self, as is always taught. The more that I learn, the farther away this idea is to me. It is the death of Adam. Adam is sentenced to die and God's word has never changed in this matter. In Christ, we find that death for ourselves so that we might live. Quite the paradox in my opinion. This is why Paul could write that he was crucified with Christ. End Quote:



ok,.....So your saying that the death of self, is not the Adamic Nature? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Because I thought they were the same.

I have to agree with Scherryl, that they are the same and we do have to die to self, our old nature



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

10 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:34 pm

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Scherryl wrote:Quote:

Death is at work until we take from the tree of life, who is Christ. This judgment results in physical death of the body, but for those who believe, there is resurrection from the dead, either at the end of the church age or the end of the Kingdom Age.. End Quote:

I don't understand this either. Maybe you could expound a little bit more?

Blessings

And with this one, it is life and death both working at the same time, our old self decreases while the new self (one with Christ) increases.

Life is at work until we stop receiving from the tree of life because of going back to our old self, our old way of thinking.

As for getting our heads out of time, that was a long ways back for me, for time does not actually exist, "movement exists", time is just the tool used to measure movement. The tool used by God to measure each step we take in the process of understanding, which again, at the same time is putting to death our "lack of understanding" our ignorance.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

11 Re: "to be sin" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:02 pm

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Quote:
And with this one, it is life and death both working at the same time, our old self decreases while the new self (one with Christ) increases.

Life is at work until we stop receiving from the tree of life because of going back to our old self, our old way of thinking. End Quote:

Yeah, that's the way I see it too.
As far as I understand it, we are putting on incorruption, by taking part in The Resurrection, which is Christ.
When Paul talks about the body that shall be, he says we are sowing to it, now, what it shall be, that it may bare grain or wheat or whatever. I noticed to, that incorruption is not inherited. So by taking part in The Tree of Life we are sowing to the incorruptible body that shall be.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my understanding right now.

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12 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:43 am

todosan


Good call Scherryl….

A long time ago, I was asked by my spiritual father if I was willing to pay attention to details. The reason was that the details are the things that often give us the greatest revelation. I now have a habit, right or wrong, of asking questions around the smallest details.

I cannot find any references where the bible teaches “death to self”. I searched around again this morning. That is not to say that there isn’t any, it is just that none popped out at me. Maybe you can point me to one?

The reason why I said it that way was because the self really cannot deny self. As much as we would like to say we have died to self, we never really can say that we have. Also I do not know what the “self” is in bible terms. Yes, I believe it can be Adam or the flesh if you prefer.

Perhaps I am knit picking, but the phrase sort of bothers me in that it is misleading.

The sentence of God against sin is actually redemptive. Some see it as a curse, others see it as punishment, but it is not until we see how death is applied that we can fully understand the redemptive power of death.

Heb 2:14 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now, that is power.

Taking that one step further, let’s apply that to our own lives.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Putting to death the deeds of the body really was the application of crucifying the Adamic nature. We all know this, right? I am just not sure how to be successful in denying one’s self? See it is not merely denying it, but killing it.

I guess we are just saying the same thing actually….I just avoid Christian colloquialism. It confuses the unbeliever.

Question #2.

So the antidote for death is life. What you find in studying hell, is that hell is often used to wrongly represent the penalty for sin… which is really death. Sheol literally translated is “the hidden place”, which comes from the garden. When Adam sinned, he “Hid” himself. He fell into sheol. God brought this to his attention by asking Adam, “Where are you?” The answer was hidden of course. This is why David could say, if he makes his bed in Sheol, thou art there.

So Christ came that you might have life and life more abundantly. This is the exact diametrical opposite of death, which was the penalty. He was raised from the dead that we also might be raised. The last enemy to be defeated of course, is death.

This happens to each person in their own order (1 Cor 15). This is understood by the three harvests which are barley, wheat, and grapes. Naturally, Barely is harvested first about the time of Passover. Wheat at the time of Pentecost, and grapes are now, about the time of Tabernacles. This of course is all symbolic.

Barley requires no effort to separate the chaff from the grain. Wheat must be beaten, and grapes are trod underfoot. This is the progressive revelation of resurrection. We have some clues when this will happen, although the day and the hour are not known.

The barley company are the overcomers. They are called out of the earth first, and this is the resurrection at the beginning of the Kingdom Age. We find this in Rev 20. These are the types of Joseph or David. They are king-priests. They have the anointing of prophet, priest, and king, like David, like Joseph, and certainly like Jesus. They are priests of our Lord God, and they reign, hence the reason for the kingly anointing. This was the prize Paul was contending for. It was not merely salvation, for blessed are those who are part of the first resurrection.

The wheat and grapes have not come to that level of maturity. They require discipline to yield their fruit. These do not rise again until the end of the age. This is referenced by Luke in Acts as Paul testifies:

Acts 24: 14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Wow, what an amazingly powerful verse. Really? Without offense toward God and men… That I have only seen a glimpse.

But notice the unjust are also resurrected. This quickly digresses into the lake of fire at this point, which I am not going to speak about now. But the unjust are resurrected also, assuming that this is the end of the Kingdom Age, referenced here:

Rev 20:5 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

Ok, way out on the limb here…The unjust are the grapes, trodden under foot, those who had received the mark, and those who had worshipped the beast or his image. If you read Rev 20, then you see that all men and women eventually stand before God. But a death remains for those who have not appropriated His death. The theme is exactly the same from the beginning.

Ok, that is certainly going to cause more questions than answers… sorry……

13 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

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Don't stop now!! You're on a roll!

The knee-jerk explanation to the unjust being resurrected unto condemnation is "that's" where going to hell comes in to play. The sinners die and at the great white throne judgment, the dead sinners are resurrected, then led into the judgment place where they are pronounced unworthy to live in heaven and so they're thrown into hell. They were resurrected from the dead so they could be thrown into hell. Yup .. . that's how love works all right.

14 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:08 pm

todosan


I know that you know that you are just messin now....

15 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:08 pm

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Hey Todd, just a thought. But I think that those who take the mark are only of the wheat harvest. It says in Rev, all those who dwell on the earth who took the mark. And there are 3 categories of people. Those dwelling in heaven, those on the earth, and those in the sea. I've been thinking about this very thing and, how can the dead, those in the sea, take the mark, they aren't even a part of the temple yet, let alone to defile it (the sea was always associated with death, it was a scary place to the ancients). When I discuss these things with dispensationalists, I always ask, how can it be an abomination to set up a literal idol of zeus, in a literal stone temple in, literal Jerusalem, that God has said He does not dwell in, that Jerusalem is called the bond servant, and that an idol is nothing?

I could be wrong on this, I haven't "really" studied it out.

16 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:50 pm

todosan


The White Throne judgment is actually the fulfillment of the law. In many cases, the divine law has a delayed effect of reconciling the victim. The number one problem I see today in our justice system is that victims are often left without retribution for the crimes committed against them. Often, we see the state benefitting from the sin of people. When people are caught doing crimes, the victim can suffer loss and the state gains revenue or labor as a result of the incarceration of the perp.

Some crimes are not reconcilable in the natural sense. In cases such as murder, the victim has passed and regardless of what happens to the perpetrator, the crime is not reconciled until the White Throne where the Lord Himself addresses all matters of judgment. This is why they are all resurrected at that time… both believers and unbelievers.

This is a fascinating topic. As I was digging around, I found new things that I just flipped over.

Maybe we should talk about the Lake of Fire. Here is a starting point. The fire of God is not a burning fire, but a consuming fire. When God gave the Law on Mt. Sinai (Jabal el Lawz – mountain of the law), He appeared as a fire. The mountain was actually blackened and is to this day. I met the man who rediscovered the mountain before he died. Here is a link where you can see the blackened peak:
http://ronwyatt.com/mount_sinia.html

He most definitely descended as a fire, but it was to give the Law to Moses. The fire has since represented the Law of God, which brings about refinement, repentance, and the cleansing of the precious (you).

Jesus was clearly wanting to bring fire upon the earth, not to destroy it by natural burning, but to cleanse it from sin, like leaven from the bread. He was the law embodied. The law and prophets testified of Christ in all respects. Too many ignorant Christians teach that the law has passed away when Jesus clearly stated the contrary. He was the law made manifest. Surely He has not passed away.

So He came to cast fire on the earth.

Luke 12:49 49 I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!
This needs no explanation except that the fire is the fiery law of God.

In Jeremiah 23:29 God says, "Is not My word like fire?"

AS we are talking about judgment in the other thread, it applies here also. The judgment of God can be taken two ways, but only one is correct. Judgment is often considered to be punishment, but as I said before it is actually redemptive (the left hand vs. the right). I ran across the verse that specifically says so:

Isa 26:9b - For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

And now you know why it is the Lord that judges and must always be the source of all our judgments. How much more do we need the mind of Christ? Do our own judgments bring about righteousness? I think not.

So those that are not conformed to the law (made in His image) are then subjected to judgment, which is the fire of God. This should make everyone re-think the lake of fire. I will give you a clue… brimstone is sulfur and it was considered a medicine for the healing of burns…


17 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:13 pm

todosan


Jeremy1 wrote:Hey Todd, just a thought. But I think that those who take the mark are only of the wheat harvest. It says in Rev, all those who dwell on the earth who took the mark. And there are 3 categories of people. Those dwelling in heaven, those on the earth, and those in the sea. I've been thinking about this very thing and, how can the dead, those in the sea, take the mark, they aren't even a part of the temple yet, let alone to defile it (the sea was always associated with death, it was a scary place to the ancients). When I discuss these things with dispensationalists, I always ask, how can it be an abomination to set up a literal idol of zeus, in a literal stone temple in, literal Jerusalem, that God has said He does not dwell in, that Jerusalem is called the bond servant, and that an idol is nothing?

I am sort of on this page. I hope everyone keeps in mind that we are trailblazing here...

The wheat harvest appears to come at the end of the Kingdom Age as the "resurrection of the just", separate from the king priests who are resurrected at the beginning. Here is a strong strong scripture:

Luke 12:45 But if that slave says in his heart, "My master will be a long time in coming," and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will scourge (cut with a whip) him to pieces, and assign his portion with the unbelievers.


In this case, a slave is a bondservant to Christ. We see a clear picture of his assignment with the unbelievers at the end of the 1000 year reign. Rev 20, never says that the wheat harvest are people that do take the mark, but I am inclined to think that they do. The mark is a number of a man, or man's number. Those refusing to go on to Tabernacles do not fulfill the work of the Feast of Weeks. They are lukewarm and are spewn out of His mouth. These are those not fit to reign, and are the ones you see every week on Christian TV and radio beating the servants.

The sea speaks of the broad stroke of humanity. The descendants were like sands on the sea shore. The sea of glass is representative of the lavor, which also is found in the outer court. Being IN the sea, would be like being drowned in the natural, thus dead. Humanity is dead, technically, until they come to Christ.

So yes, I am buying it. That is a great observation. Requires some more thought.

I am reminded again that those who should have known better, will be judged differently. This is sort of a scary verse:

Luke 12:47 And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Guess there is no room for greasy grace with the wheat company, is there? That is why Saul's reign was limited by death....(Saul was anointed at the time of the wheat harvest)

18 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:15 pm

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Todd,
Thank you for responding, we may be more alike than what you realize. I am one for details myself, and I absolutely agree that some of my greatest Revelations have come in noticing the things that are read between the lines so to speak. You know the old saying the devil is in the details, I find that The Lord is in the details instead. And like you, I know exactly what you mean when taking a catch phrase that has been made to become a doctrine, and that can be misleading for sure, I am the same way when it comes to splitting hairs, so much so it can drive the Religious batty. Razz But the reason being is, no one likes a good challenge like me when it comes to my way of thinking.
So I also, challenge others to think, why and how they have come to believe what they believe.

Now, with that being said, I personally believe that the "I" that Paul is referring to in this vs. is the "self/old nature.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

old man. The old Adam nature. Here, Eph_4:22. Col_3:9.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

This is what I relate to the "Self" of man/old man. But, I will refrain my-self, Very Happy from using it if it bothers you, I have no problem with that what so ever, because I understand how you feel about it. I have the same problem when it comes to certain phases my-self Very Happy

There is however one thing I have noticed when I read your post and if I'm wrong then please do not hesitate to correct me.
I am a "Kingdom Now believer" and don't look to the future as to what I need from Him to REALLY LIVE. I get the impression that you have a tendency to put things off a bit till another age, or end of age, which to me speaks of time, which you said "we need to get our head out of". Very Happy Still smiling.

I like the way you brought out the Barley, Wheat, and Grapes, and compared it to, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. I don't however, agree with the way you use it.

I see this as a progression in The Believers Walk. I have never seen it as those who as you have described as needing discipline or the lake of fire, in order to be Redeemed.
Then again I could be way off, my-self. Very Happy

I see all of us needing discipline and the fire, believers and unbelievers alike, to be able to walk in the Redemption of Christ.

As far as the physical body, to me, my body is no different from the unbeliever, in the fact that we must all put it off.
Wither Saint or Sinner, we all likewise, will lay this flesh suit down, so, you comparing that to the death sentence, I don't understand.

To me scripture is plain, To be carnally minded is Death.
The last enemy to be destroyed is Death (the carnal Mind)
And death and hell (which is caused by the carnal mind) shall be cast into to the lake of fire.

And there shall be no more death (the carnal mind).
Death (the carnal mind) has been swallowed up in victory!!!

Just my take. I still love you Todd Very Happy And I do appreciate all your insights, and hope we can continue to dialogue together even if we don't see eye to eye on certain things. I think it is extremely important to love one another and speak as we see things.


I noticed that others have replied while I was typing but I'm going to post it anyhow.

Blessings





http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

19 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:54 pm

cross-eyed

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I would think it would be connected to the walking dead . . .it's all spiritual. Like when Jesus stated "let the dead bury the dead".

This thing you guys are doing on this thread now is a whole other dimension for me . . . I find it extremely interesting.

20 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:02 pm

todosan


Scherryl

Thanks for writing. I REALLY appreciate it.

I don’t see the differences that you mentioned. You see, it is not an either or proposition. Often if there are different perspectives, it is merely different levels of the same thing. By you sharing your perspective, I grow and gain a fuller understanding. Honestly.

I fully understand the Kingdom Now perspective, and we would be amiss to neglect that perspective. Going back to what Mark said in another thread, we should appropriate these things internally. Surely the Kingdom of God is in you. There are many levels of kingdom manifestation. The word kingdom is short for king’s-dominion. Everywhere that the King has dominion, it is His kingdom. When we talk about the world scene, there is also a Kingdom that is coming. Thy Kingdom come. We owe it to each other to be as clear as possible about which level we are discussing, but one does not negate the other.

You are equally as correct on the progression of the believer. I promise you though, that there is ever deeper revelation on this one also. You are not way off, you are just focusing on one facet of a many faceted diamond. (Judging right and wrong is a different tree than the tree of Life.)

It is very important to frame your perspective in all these things. I framed the harvests in the form of resurrection. You took a look in the framework of maturity. Both valid and not mutually exclusive. In the tabernacle, we can move from out to in, which is east to west. This is the perspective of the priest. OR, we can move from in to out, or west to east. This is the Lord’s perspective based on His starting point. The priest’s perspective is one of faith, God’s perspective is one of grace. Get it? Same tabernacle, two unique perspectives. From the earth, Jesus died for our sins. From heaven, Jesus died for Himself.

Superb comments on death. I somehow lost that along the way.. Bravo!!! Look how that will tie into the mind of Christ discussion.

21 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:15 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Todd,

You are absolutely right. And I am so blessed that you understand these things. I am the first to admit, if I think I have arrived at knowing all there is to know about our God, then I am deceiving my-self Wink There is always room for Growth.

I look forward to more of our conversations in the future because if your seeing more than I am, no matter who you are, then I will be the first to say "I want It"!!!!! So don't be surprise if I pick your brain and follow you around like a lost puppy. Very Happy LOL.

I fully believe of having a single eye cyclops But not to the point of not seeing another's point of view. (I knew if I posted enough, I would find a place to post that lit'll emoticon.)

Thank you Todd, for sharing your perspective
I will give much prayer and thought to what you
and others have contributed to this topic, and The mind of Christ. YES.

Blessings

http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

22 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:01 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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I tried making a post earlier, but it did not go through, I guess I thought longer than the quick reply did. Very Happy

Anyway, I agree with using some phrases is misleading, since any phrase can have a different meaning for one compared to another.

Todd, if I am understanding you right, (in my terminology), it is not "a dying to self" but a "transformation of self" ........ The self remains intact, but it is transformed from one condition to another.

Anticipating your understanding. Arrow

Rick



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

23 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:42 pm

Guest


Guest
Take 2 lines a red and a blue, they are overlaid and you plot out 7 points along the way. Now stand up the blue line to be perpendicular the red, making it into a graph. At the point 0,0 is technically nothing, then the first point is Day 1 of Creation.

Each of the points is a day of creation. The red line (horizontal or x axis) is time, the blue line (vertical or y axis) is growing up into the head.

Both of the lines were originally overlaid, and each of the days or plot points corresponds with the other axis' day.

This is how I visualize both views that Todd and Scherryl were expressing.

I see the 7 feasts overlaying the 7 days of creation and the 7 ages all happening in time, so there is a time of the feast of tabernacles, where the two shall become one, and the unveiling of the sons of God will occur.

This corresponds with the ages taking place within us. Paul said "these things happened as our examples, on whom the end of the ages have come". The end of the ages had not occured at Pauls time. Yes the end of the outward, literal jerusalem, stone temple, but that only corresponds to the passover age. We still had the pentecost age to go, which we are coming to the end of. The reason we know that we are coming to the end of that age, besides the time factor of the 7th day 3rd day. But that we are being transfigured from glory to glory. And the unveiling occurs simultaneously in us and in time. These truths are being revealed in this day because a company is about to/being born. This doesn't negate the other overcomers throughout history, nay they're born out of season.

Speaking of time and feasts Smile

I was just thinking about the breakup of years.
4000 years from adam to Christ, passover
2000 years for pentecost
1000 years for tabernacles

4, 2, 1 2 is half of 4, 1 is half of 2

4 is the number of creation, and all of creation is under bondage to the shadow of death, this is the stone law realm, the realm of flesh. The law is called the shadow of the real, this is the shadow of death. The dead know nothing. This is the sea.

2 is for the 2 men. This is the in part realm of duality. This is the realm of the image of adam vs. the image of christ. Taking the mark is going after the image of adam. The end of this realm is the unveiling, because the curtain is pulled back. And the mystery is revealed both of the man of lawlessness, and of Christ in you. They take place at the same time IMO.

1 is for unity. There is one Lord, one Faith, one baptism. The two have become one. The body is united through one head, even Christ. There is one mind, the mind of christ. And they had everything together, and were of one accord. Just as the Israelites went to Succoth(tabernacle) first out of Egypt, in the realm of pentecost, so did the disciples. They had one-ness for a short time, but that was the M.O. of the in part realm. But not the fullness. The 1000 year reign technically never ends IMO because of what I shared earlier about it being the mind of Christ.

The body has 1 head. 2 portions of the torso, the ribcage and the abdomen. There are 4 limbs on the body.

So I agree wholeheartedly that it is both. And I'm sure there are all kinds of holes in my graph analogy, but it gives me a working picture. You know if you extend the graph lines into the negative you get a cross.

24 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:05 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Ok, is it just me, or does anyone else think it's raining Manna in this place?

I Love, Love, Love, this sort of thinking. At first I couldn't quite get the graph thing in my mind the way you were describing it, I had it weaving over top in a zig-zag pattern making seven points, and was seeing that at every point that it crossed made purple, Royalty, see never assume right lol, that's where I thought you were going, boy was I wrong. Not only that but was also seeing the serpent thingy on the pole, I can't remember what they call that for the Physician, but anyhow.

At the end I got it. And seeing the cross like you said and to me it has 4 points which like you said speaks of Creation, it stretches out to "All" of Creation. Love it!

But I can't also help seeing the Woof and the Warp too, in our Garments, that are the Righteousness of Christ, again the 2 opposites (+) coming together forming the Cross, and clothing us thereby.

Good stuff!!!

Blessings

http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

25 Re: "to be sin" on Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:32 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Good stuff jeremy

it was a couple years back, but when you talk about things happening at the same time, down to up, beginning to end (X,Y) this is what I saw in Revelation when it describes the seven churches, which I see as stages in our development (personal and as a whole)and that the seven seals being broken also are stages, or steps God has taken throughout this (so far) 6000 years and I also see that we are coming into the age of rest (the Sabbath)the 1000 year reign.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

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