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26 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:05 pm


cross-eyed wrote:Weird, huh.

Weird seems just as good a word as any to describe the beauty of this intimacy. You remind me of a place I went when I was a child, and haven't heard of since. I would bet that there isn't one person in a million who has heard of this river. Your servant is listening, Lord!

27 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:15 pm


It's the old addage you can draw more flies with sweetness than vinigar

Hi Nathan,
The quote we have here about this is "you can draw more bees with honey than with vinegar".

28 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:26 pm


that would make much more sense. geek

29 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:32 pm


Well, I know flies love vinegar. LOL. Being in south GA we have flies galore here and one way older people here tell you to get rid of the ones that get into your house is to trap them by putting vinegar in a glass and cover it with plastic with a small hole in it. They go for the vinegar and crawl into the container through the hole but when they drink it, they die. LOL. But, now honey, we used to have bee hives and when we would collect the honey, the bees really swarmed around it when you brought it into your house, as they would follow the honey. Just an observation in the natural sense. Smile

I understand the point you are making though. So, everything else in my comment is just merely an observation of natural things.

30 Judgment on Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:49 pm


Please forgive me if I am hijacking the river...don't know if I'm wrestling with the angel of the Lord or not but there still seems to be some strength on this issue of Judgment.

Decided I needed to spend some time in prayer and reconnoiter a little bit. I am determined to remain teachable no matter how hard that might be for a mind trained in the law. That being said, my mind and my spirit are not settled that I have a proper understanding of the subject.

A few other verses came to mind. On the beam and the mote, I purposely left off the last line...you know the one that goes that once we have removed the beam from our own eye we will see clearly to remove the moat from our brother. That thought morphed over to Hebrews 10 and "Being in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience is complete." It is in the same context as "provoking one another to good works" and "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together." As I pondered these verses, I considered having moderators and administrators of forums. We don't really want to have just anyone posting or really to have posts that are just vain imaginations or flights of fancy. We also don't want to have spirits of those that are divisive or judgmental or argumentative (for the sake of argument) and fill the forum with words to no avail.

Do we not therefore establish a catch 22, a conundrum of sorts, (one of Jeremy's enigmas)? When we define someone as an abuser or judgmental, have we not judged? What is it that I am missing? 1 Cor 13-16 refers to this issue:

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. KJV

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
1Co 2:15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
1Co 2:16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we-we have the mind of Christ. Young's Literal

The Judgment that God reserved for a certain day and reserved for a certain man...is not this the day and is not Christ the man? Can we "judge" anything correctly out of our fleshly understanding? Isn't it by the spirit that we are instructed to try the spirit?

I disagree that Paul's admonition was simply an apostolic exercise with his children. I believe that there are aspects of recognizing carnal behavior and "measuring" both ourselves and others "within the camp" when they are in the flesh and not in the spirit. I recognize that continuing this discussion risks being judged as judgmental but that is truly not what is in my heart. I went back and cleaned up that messy post of the other day and edited out most of the Strong's numbers and highlighted important aspects of the text. I truly desire to have this issue settled in my own heart lest I proceed further and become a hindrance to others or strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

One last thought, when discussing the issue of leaven with some friends some time ago, they kept saying that leaven was bad. My understanding was that leaven was neutral...it just depended on what the leavening agent was. If it was sin, it was the dirt in the house that was searched out at passover and "your leavening is not good". A little pride, a little carnality and it can leaven the whole lump or loaf.
At the same time we have the Holy Spirit being placed in three measures and it too leavens the whole loaf. I see the matter of judgment in much the same way. If we judge out of the flesh, or with an attitude of superiority, then it is the judgment that we are instructed to avoid. If, however, we judge by the spirit, is it not Christ that judges and does it not equip us for the work and mission for which God has been preparing us for these many years? Isn't the Word made flesh that was in the beginning, the plumb bob by which we are enabled to judge if the house is going up square of if we are off kilter?

Semantics can lead to so much misunderstanding and I don't want to quibble...but I truly am trying to gain understanding in this area. Love in him,

31 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:00 pm


In the spirit of the name of this forum, I'll let this settle and we'll move on from here.

Blessings to all who've been reading these things.

32 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:33 pm


Bless your heart Mark, sounds like you've been struggling with the same type of things I have been, and there are others too.

But you know what I think is happening? We have for the most part been being taught at His feet for so long in such an intimate place, that, even though we have learned so much from Him, we have still "not" learned to work together as a whole body, as ONE unit, so to speak. I was just telling someone that I think The Lord is doing much more behind the scenes in this forum than what we think. In order to operate as ONE body, there are things that are going to have to surface that maybe has laid dormant for a long time so that we can learn to operate as The Father and The Son operate, as ONE. I expect these things will be coming up more in the days ahead, for one reason, we must be different than the Church on the corner who is very much in disarray right now, and much division. We as Sons, must come to terms with the issues at hand that He brings forth or we might as well be in the church building.

We are ONE body, but we must be compacted, joined together and completely functioning as a whole,since we are many members or else what good are we?

It just like the assembling as you mentioned, when you get something from the store, usually it says some assembly required, it must be that way, the parts must come together or else they might as well be left in the box, there of no use until they are UNITED and fit together as they were meant to be.

I believe that is what The Lord is doing with us all, so I say hold on tight to what The Lord has revealed to you, and He will make it all fit together, He will put us together so that we function as He has designed us to be, for His purpose.

I hope that doesn't sound like just wrangling. Very Happy



33 Judgment on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:53 pm


Sherryl...Thank you for your comments. I too believe that the process of assembly is not simply to throw the pieces together and if there is a little discomfort, sweep it under the rug or go join another bunch. There is an offense to the gospel and my book says that we are blessed when we are not offended. I have the capacity to become offended and the world says that there are two responses: fight or flight. Either we fight to defend our position (and God knows that I do not want to be found stiff necked and fighting against Him or His people) or we flee from the struggle. Paul had to withstand Peter, James sent some religious folk to interfere with what God was doing and require circumcision, there were occasions of division. Sometimes it is even as a cell divides that multiplication ensues. At the same time, each time that the people waited until they became of one heart and one mind and cared enough to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, that something wonderful came about.

My confidence is that since we all love Him, He will perfect those things that concern us and bring us to an expected end. It is after all, the Lord who is building this house. It is as we pray one for another that the stones begin to fit.

34 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:15 pm


Agreed, I don't want to flee anymore, I want to stay.

Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


35 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:13 pm


Mark, I think there is a way of thinking that makes a person a good attorney. I can relate. For me to be able to "understand" a thing, it has to "fit." The first thing I need to do is to argue my own understanding, and rely on another with Truth and Love enough to put down my arguments. Now I am ready to run with something that "fits" better. I hope I am finding a better way. . .

If only I can learn to 'lay down my head' as Nathan described. I believe this is possible, even in my tough case.

36 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:15 pm


Okay, here we go.

I want to begin this by saying I believe the passage that speaks to our weapons being turned into plowshares is not a future event . . .it's an inward one. And as such, I REALLY don't want to battle anyone, I want to let the seed be planted and take on a life of it's own.

Having said that, I sense that I'm on the verge of arguing with a mindset and I don't want to get into battle with the minds here either. When I started this vision of having a forum with a diverse group, the purpose wasn't to hash out our differences and come into an agreement of the minds as much as it was to embrace what each of us have received in our revelating with one another thruogh the Father. There is just so much depth to the nature of who God is, there's just no possible way our finite minds can ever grasp it. So from my own experiences, I've found the debating to become counter-productive.

One thing I used to tell my church all the time was . . .I don't want to talk to your mind, I have enough issues dealing with my own, let alone get into a debate with someone elses. Because the truth of the matter is, our minds can not comprehend the principles of the kingdom. Our minds are actually at war with God and require continual renewal just to advance in our daily walk with him.

This is what happened over on Tent a lot . . . you get to revelating, and some embrace it while others want to use their learning skills to measure and contemplate and it just never ends well because spiritual truths just don't mix with natural reasoning. That's what the story of the sons of God sleeping with the daughters of men is all about.

I want to know what has God revealed to you through your personal and intimate experience with him. What mysteries has he unlocked for you? What parts of your life has he brought freedom to? What river is pouring out of you?

When we walk in the spirit, the wrestling ends and the rest begins. And "faith" is then manifesting in all of us. I have no issues with word studies and definitions. I think Scripture is an endless resource of wonderful things. But without spiritual revelation, it's just another book . . even worse, people pull up stakes and go to war with each other over what they've learned rather than what the Father has revealed. Spirit never wrestles with spiritual truth . . . the wrestling comes when our own logic and reason rise up with it's own rationale because it doesn't understand what's being presented.

The kingdom is the greatest place beyond earth. You can't see it "through" Scripture, only the Word in us will reveal it "in" Scripture. If you take a few steps back on this particular thread and look for the shift, was it taking us higher? Picking up momentum even more? Or slowing down . . .

Therefore there is no condemnation . . . I don't have any ill feelings toward anyone, but as much as you feel the need to define judgment, I feel the need to release it. And as Scherryl said, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes here than meets the eye. This is a haven for the weary so they can experience what true rest is all about.

Maybe it might help if I told you that since this started, EVERY doctrine I've had, I've had to let go of. EVERY one of them. I LOVED to debate . . . it goes along with being long-winded. I'm good at that to! Or so I'm told.

But my desire . . .it's like Jesus said at the last supper . . .it's with GREAT DESIRE that I DESIRE to bring freedom to EVERY aspect of all who come here. But for freedom to come, the logic and reason must come down. You know in Matthew 24 where the disciples were trying to difuse the situation a bit because Jesus just laid into the religious and they were furioius . . .the disciples pointed around at all the masterful talen and artwork men had that built the buildings in honor of God . . .and Jesus response was, not one stone will be left on top of the other . . .that wonderful artwork was my doctrine and theology.

In fact, it was so deep and so obvious, I had a crowbar I brought to church from my garage and I hung it on my pulpit for months as a visual reminder of just how much God not only "had" torn down, but how much still needs to be torn down. It's a process. And once we moved into other rooms of the Father's house, I had the crowbar mounted on our wall. Someone took it upon themselves to paint it gold, silver and purple. When I left, I left it on the wall . . .but the incoming pastor found it to be inappropriate and had it removed. I had John confiscate it for me before he and Linda left the church as well, and I still cherish it to this day.

I don't ask that everyone understands the things I say. I'm not kidding when I tell you many things I share I don't fully understand myself. But I don't reserve them any longer because again . . .in Jesus' own words . . tear this temple down and in three days I'll raise it up. Now we know he was referring to his body as the temple but we also know there are countless dimensions to his word/words. And I believe we are the living stones he's assembling together to build his church. But this church isn't based on our traditional reasoning and logic. This church is based on revelation.

What's the difference? For one, "truth". Not truth as in who's right or who's wrong, but truth as in LIFE . . .LIGHT . . .LOVE . . . the thing about this judgment, and our license to reproof one another . . .for me, it's just impossible to embrace the grace and bring judgment to another brother. I seriously think the power of correction is in our spiritual DNA. The Holy Spirit will bring the reproof "within" another without the intervention of another individual. I know . . .that doesn't mesh with logic and what we "think" Scripture says.

Oh, that reminds me . . another little saying that kind of raises eyebrows . . .I don't base my relationship on what I think the Bible says. I base it on what the Word "in me" declares. As you can see in my opinions and sharings, it causes me to see things much differently than the norm.

Again, I'm not expecting all to understand . . .all I ask is that you don't reject the seed being planted. We all have a definite "knowing" that God has brought us together so none of us are going anywhere. But go easy on me, I've done jumped in with both feet and let go of everything I used to me . .and . .it's messed me up so the stuff I say is not your usual thinking.

Remain hungry and the river responds to the hunger. If you go against the current, it affects the flow of the river. There is a breaking that's just waiting to happen in all of us. We just need to recognize when our minds try to intervene when the freedom of truth is upon us and "let" the seed take root and grow in our spirit . . .understanding will come in the birthing, but if we reject the seed, there's no birthing or understanding either one.

In God's love . . . and I seriously mean that. In God's love, let's all embrace the grace . . .oh, that's another song I've posted on the other thread as well.


37 Judgment on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:46 pm


When I spoke about hijacking the river, I was kidding about the fact that this thread had morphed into talking about a dam and a river in Iowa. I certainly was not intending to hijack or interfere with the river of the spirit or the flow of truth...in fact it is my hunger for truth that precipitated my discussion.

It is indeed unfortunate that I have not understood that this was Nathan's vision. I was hoping that this was the product of someone whose only agenda was to follow the leading of the spirit...wherever that would lead. I have not participated in forums before for the very reason that Nathan pointed out. I have fought too many battles to want to fight any more. It saddens me that my heart has been so misunderstood. Maybe all of those years in trial have made me more of a gladiator than I think of myself as being. Also, it just might be that I have grown deaf as I have aged and am hearing the voice of reason masquerading as the voice of the spirit...after all we know who comes as an angel of light.

38 Re: "Judgement" on Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:25 am


I have not participated in forums before for the very reason that Nathan pointed out. I have fought too many battles to want to fight any more.

I have too. However, I have participated in many forums and this one was created for the very purpose we all have come to the same conclusions, at least from my understanding this is where we are all in agreement. Thus, the name of the forum. Many times I have misunderstood what is being said and after laying it aside, would come back to the same posts and find understanding that had not been realized before (not saying that you have done this, only relating my own experience). At least everyone recognizes this and we are all finding our paths are not really all that different and if it gets sidetracked at times, we can still find ourselves back at the place we so desire, a place of rest.

Is is possible that God can bring His family into One with Him? I have questioned if this was even possible in the past but, I believe He can. If it wasn't, then why would we all have the same desire? I love you

39 Re: "Judgement" on Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:26 am


Hey Mr. Hibbs, I've sent you a private message . . .check your in box. Don't give up on me, we can get through all this . . .it'll be worth it for both of us!! Very Happy

40 Re: "Judgement" on Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:15 am



I agree with you. I believe there is a place for judgement in our experience. Judgement for me is executed from the perspective of it's purpose to accomplish the will of God in my life, in a nutshell the manifestation of Christ's life within us transforming us into His image. We are meant to have fellowship with one another, not getting together kind of fellowship, but fellowship that allows us to grow together in unity unto the full stature of Christ.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

As we recognize our identity (sons of God) and acquiesce to the destiny that entails, we cease from being under tutors to accepting God's will for all of mankind, this is the maturing of the saints. So we are to be transformed into the image that we now behold, growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord because in growing in our knowledge of Him, we will know what we shall be like for our life is hidden in Him and as He is, so are we in the world. We begin to have fellowship in the light of the truth that John talks about.

1Jn 1:5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It's like what goes on here; we are all quick to acknowledge when we are 'walking in the flesh', quick to acknowledge our remedy for our malady (the sacrifice of Christ), wake up unto righteousness and sin no more (bringing about the finished work of Christ).

However, there are certainly times when I am not so quick to do so. This is when I rely on my brothers who don't judge according to the flesh but who in like mind understand the process that we are going through; the reality of the fallen nature of mankind and knowledge of my heart's desire to be in fellowship.

It's important for me to know there are those of like mind. Paul says of our journey together:

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind (waking up unto righteousness, accepting the finished work of Christ as our sacrifice), and reaching forth unto those things which are before(sinning no more, accepting his righteousness), I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus(ascending with fellow saints to heavenly places, fellowship in the light). Let us therefore, as many as be perfect(mature in our understanding of this process), be thus minded(each of us understanding that this is how it works, taking heed when we stand less we ourselves fall): and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you(Praise God He's got it covered!). Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing(this journey of our transformation).

In addition, if we see your brother sinning a sin that is not unto death we are to ask for life for this brother (1Jn 5:16) To me a sin that is not unto death is anything that is not of faith. When we deviate from the path that we are on towards our maturity in Christ, we are walking in sin, against the will of God. For His will is for us to be transformed into the image of Christ. Once our Father has given us life for our brother we are to: Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

This to me tells me that there are those that are in this place of fellowship in the light (ye which are spiritual) who understand our destiny and know my heart is to be with them. They understand that I recognize my need and desire to be in this place as well (the new Jerusalem), they bear my burden and help restore me back to a place of faith in Christ and fellowship in the light. This does not come without judging or discerning the situation. I believe there is a difference between judging and condemning. We are to rightfully judge according to the will of God but we are not to condemn or lower the value of our opinion of others based on that judgement.

I am not sure what it means to judge the world other than using the world as the example of the fallen state by which we measure against the risen state of Christ, assisting us in growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. I don't understand what the purpose of judging others is(outside the fellowship in the context of what I described above). I think my perspective on judging is a bit narrowly focused.

I truly appreciate your thoughts and your expression of them. Please continue to wrestle with this thing until we come to a greater understanding, I know mine is incomplete.


41 Re: "Judgement" on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:53 am


Enjoyed your post Kevin . . .always do. But this just seems so very well written and explained.

Blessings bro.

42 Judgment on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:13 pm


They overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.

27 years ago I was questioning something that the Lord was challenging me to determine. I had been "saved" for about a year and was an active member in a good Lutheran church...at least good by the standards of that day and my walk. There were good Bible studies, wonderful choir, it was celebrating its 100th anniversary and there were mission activities abounding. I was struggling with the issue of Baptism...should I be baptized and should it be immersion? At that same time, the pastor decided to have a bible study on the subject of baptism...God has such good timing. With Bible in hand, I came to the class (which was supposed to last some 10 weeks) fully expecting to embark upon a thorough study of the subject in the word. Imagine my disappointment when I was greeted by a single page printout of 10 scriptures containing the word baptism and we never opened our bible? Imagine further that the assistant pastor (who was teaching the class) pulled out the little "stole" made of felt with symbols that is put over the baby's head and the baptism candle that is presented to the parents to commemorate the "birthday" of the child as a christian?

Instead of a bible study, we were waltzing through Luther's small catechism and carefully avoiding any issue that might question the validity of infant baptism or its impact upon the person baptized. When I began to question some of these things, the pastor took me aside and informed me that my questions were disrupting the class. He then asked me to meet with him in his office so that we might discuss these things in private. He wasn't really willing to consider what the bible said on the issue. This was a pet doctrine for him...a holy cow if you will and when I touched that ox, I was branded. Even though I was on the board of evangelism and had been to the pastor's cottage and he to my home, when I touched this subject, I was now regarded as dangerous and watched with suspicion....keep me from the sheep.

Shortly after, our little board was at the annual church meeting where each of the boards reports on their activities and plans for the next year. When it came time for our board to report and the chairman recognized our board, the pastor got up and announced that since our chair was away applying to the seminary that there would be no report, knowing full well that our board was very active on several fronts. It seems that when I told one of the members that I was wondering if we needed to evangelize in house as much as outside the church and that the church could use a good blast of "dunamis" to blow some of the dust of tradition off the church, she reported what I had said to the pastor and the report was out that I had threatened to "blow up the church". When I stood up to report, the pastor (who was not chairing the meeting) proceeded to tell me that I was out of order, even though I had been designated by our board to report.

That was the beginning of several experiences with the left foot of fellowship. It was also a place where I experienced Father's woodshed because I did not understand authority and that the pastor in the "church" is the authority of that "house" and should not be confronted. Since that time, I have learned much about authority and rebellion. I was privileged to represent all of the "rescuers" during the 80's at the abortion protests and it was a great opportunity to observe christians interfacing with the law. It was in that season that the Lord started to reveal the heart and what I have since come to understand quite well. It is not for me to chasten or challenge the authority outside of the established procedures...and if I do so, then I will be guilty of witchcraft and find myself chastened.

I am sharing this experience because I am trying to determine who or what is the authority in this "house"? Is it the witness of the word and the spirit? Or is it someone who had the vision? Or is it the administrator, or the mods? Are we "called to revelate with Nathan" or is this an unveiling work of what the Spirit is doing and has been doing with each of us.

I have found that the third day of the promised land is a good land flowing with milk and honey. I have also found that we still try and push the outside of the envelope and find the latest and most exciting "revelation" to share. In the process, I have seen and heard things marvelous not only in how they bring light and accent to the word, but how they bring confusion in their complexity and lose sight of things that are really so simple. When we lose sight of the simplicity of Christ, we can get so caught up with our "revelating" and our "revelations" that we become rich with knowledge and sound so "spiritual" not realizing that we have just come full circle and the giants are still in the land.

Forgive me if I am again "disrupting the class" but I was of the impression that this was a forum for seasoned saints...not those that quarrel for the sake of a quarrel or to prove a point... but those who need not a king and seek after truth. We know that the Spirit will guide us into all truth and that the words that Jesus gave us are spirit and truth and must be spiritually discerned. Love and Grace are not soft and squishy feelings. We know that God chastens those He loves. We know that David needed chastening even though he was a type of Christ. We know that Joseph needed seasoning even though he too was a type of Christ and that we all learn obedience by the things that we suffer.

I have heard that the law is gone and that there is no judgment any longer since we are under grace. I have listened to "kingdom" messages long enough that it has raised real questions within my own heart. Am I out to lunch or is this king that says he is clothed with gold and glory really naked? Mystery Babylon has crept in every time God brought a new revelation of himself and a denomination was formed. I do not want to camp on the idea of tabernacles and establish new traditions. I hunger and thirst for the day when we will be free of the deception of our flesh and know even as we are known. Open and transparent before Him with whom we have to deal, we will no longer need to hide behind the fig leaves of tradition or what the majority think or what is popular at the time.

That having been said, I am unafraid of going upon the rooftop or having the veil of my flesh torn....ultimately it is the Christ within upon which all of my hope and weight is placed. If indeed this is a third day forum, keeping our eyes on Christ, what have we to lose except our own pet doctrines or tradition that makes the gospel ineffective. Is this that, or should I look for another?

43 Re: "Judgement" on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:16 pm


Just noticed Nathan's post while I was writing. Thank you Kevin. I too appreciated your observations...more than you might realize. I pray that we all might find ourselves understanding truth and in the process each other. There is a struggle and a wrestling that is required for our Jacob to become Israel.

44 Re: "Judgement" on Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:11 pm


Okay Hibbs, let me present this another way.

We share what we see. Simply put. If others don't see it, we're absolutely fine with it. In my eyes, we're not here to defend, we're not here to debate, we're simply here to share what we see and the intent is for the revelation in one to spark revelational insights in another.

No one person "has" to be the authority on this forum. Yes, I am the one that kinda reached out to a group of others and invited them to be a part of this. Yes, I am also an administrator. But I'm not going to tell you that you have to either see it my way or your just wrong. I'm not going to "defend" my positions because in my heart, I belive "truth" needs no defense, it stands on it's own merit.

You can question anything you'd like to question and there may be responses in attempts to bring clarity, but if you're looking for specific Scripture and verse . . .it just doesn't work that way. Talking about personal experiences, I've seen way to many people that use their educations and knowledge and apply that to Scripture, only to come out with a tone of control and discipline. If that's where you are, I can live with that as well.

But I'll tell you that the things being shared on this forum aren't going to come any easier for you . . .they may even frustrate you more and more because as far as I'm concerned, if life isn't manifesting in one's perspective, be it hell, judgment, baptisms or what have you, if life isn't coming forth, I take that under consideration as to whether or not I'm willing to receive it.

Do you revelate Mr. Hibbs? Aren't there times when just out of the blue, when you're not even studying Scripture or even doing anything that's spiritual at all . . .and God just drops stuff in you?

I had this happen just as I was getting into bed last night . . .the last thing I remember thinking about was the woman who was caught in adultry and the religious came with her in tow and thought they'd use this situation to their advantage and trap Jesus and his theology.

If we just ponder that for a moment . . .the woman was not innocent. She was having sex with another man . . .my guess is, she was probably even enjoying it. The rush and enticement of doing something so scandalous, she, being more than likely an ungodly person in the first place, we really don't know that, but there's no implication that she was. By all intents and purposes, you get the picture that it was a consentual act.

Being there in front of Jesus . . .total humulation at that point. They say she was still naked from being caught "in the act" and there she stands, probably trying to cover up her private parts the best she can with her hands and arms . . .head down, scared to death because by law, death was surely coming. But instead of Jesus supporting the NATURAL REASONING of those around him, he let go of those traditions . . .

Oh . . .this was in reference to another thread, I don't know which one, but it was the one talking about what laws did Jesus fulfill and what one's were still to be followed or enforced even . . .and in the conversation it was said that it was the law of righteousness that Jesus fulfilled . . .and I totally embrace that seed and I think that's what was going on in my own spirit last night . . .the seed was germinating in me.

What does the law of righteousness entail? This woman was not looking for righteousness and they didn't bring her to Jesus because they felt she broke the law of righteousness. they brought her because she broke a MAJOR COMMANDMENT . . . But when they brought the perpetrator "to" the one who IS righteous, grace superceded law, hands down.

And for me, when Jesus told her at the end to "go and sin no more" . . .that one always stumped me because clearly, she had a problem in that area as it was, how could Jesus set the bar so high and tell her to never sin again? We all know as long as we're in these bodies of flesh . . .sin is just as evident "in" these bodies.

Unless . . .

Unless what he was telling her is, since she has had an encounter with righteousness, sin is no longer counted against her. In the eyes of Jesus, in the eyes of God the Father . . .in the eyes of righteousness, sin isn't even visible. Now . . . natural minds would then ask . . .or perhaps accuse people like myself, that we're saying God's okay with us having adultery with each other . . . it's totally perverting the entire thing.

Pursuing the spiritual aspects . . .the invisible things that our minds can't "figure out" or "measure" or even "judge" for that matter, I don't embrace the spiritual ends because it means I can do whatever I want and get away with it in the end. That's perverting the entire essence of what revelating is all about. It's not about "me" and what "I" can get away with. It's about the infinite love of the Father, extending just fragments of his nature into my womb of understanding, birthing in me truths that bring FREEDOM and REST and EASY YOKES . . .

I'm not about to defend seeing this, But I am going to spend all my energy embracing it. And as I do, it changes how I've come to understand scripture. So I'm okay with you disagreeing with me. Heck, we've been down this road before with several others on this forum . . . Sherryl doesn't see some things the same way I see them but we're both still embracing each other's perspectives with love, respect . . .and silence if need be. It's more important for me to keep a relationship than it is for me to risk that relationship because my doctrine doesn't line up.

I don't believe Jesus came to establish another doctrine, I believe he came to restore a relationship. And I think TRUE freedom comes when we can lay our doctrines down and just embrace each other for the sake that we're all seeing Christ as the solution rather than an option.

Your examples you've shared Mr. Hibbs have a very familiar ring to them. I've had the same experiences as what you're describing. When I was a pastor, in the early stages of my tenure, we had a man and wife come into our Wednesday night Bible study and neither of them said anything the entire time. We always had coffee and finger foods and it was a very relaxed time of fellowship. At the end, one of our council members gave them the floor and just asked them to share with us who they were, where they're from . . .that sort of thing.

The guy stood up, opened his bible to the passage that talks about women being silent in church . . .and rebuked us for walking out of alignment with Scripture. It was a Foursquare church . . .the reason I tell you that is because Foursquare was founded by a woman . . .Aimee Semple McPherson. If it wasn't so sad, it would have been funny.

I know you struggle with the freedom we take on what we Scripture to be saying . . .but I respectfully not only decline to embrace your position, but I simply can't. I'd been there, the night this guy came in and dropped his bomb on us, as the Pastor, I took the floor and ended up telling everyone there that those that were "of us" were not to accept or receive anything this man was saying. To which the man assisted his wife out of our church only to say as they went out that it's okay that they're kicking us out because it's not "them" we were rejecting, but it was "God". They left with a victim mentality and also self-righteous indignation.

If they and those like them feel as though they're being victimized, it's not because others respond negatively toward them, it's because they've been leaning on their own understanding and there are consequences created when one does just that.

you "are" among some of the most mature believers I've ever come across. Maturity isn't in who's in control, it's in who's in submission. Submitting ourselves one to another is a sign of spiritual freedom that the mind of man will never comprehend, let alone experience. I don't feel anyone is "trying to push outside the envelop". I believe that as we walk in the spirit, He leads us out of the envelop all together. The question and challenge is . . .are we truly willing to do what the song says . . .Where you lead me . . .I will follow.

The more I embrace my own logic and reason, the more difficult it is to enter into the finished works of his Rest.

45 Re: "Judgement" on Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:53 pm


I meant to finish that thought on that couple that visited us. . .as I found myself being transformed more and more, I often looked back at that moment and kinda regretted how I handled the situation. But at the same time, "that" was before I realized there's no need to "defend" or "fight". The battle has always belonged to the Lord. The weapons of our warfare are not through individual confrontation, but through prayer.

Revelation doesn't come by way of power and might, but by his Spirit. Everything is spiritual. I'm in a place now where even though I feel that guy was over the top, I'm still okay with where he is in God. It's "his" relationship, not mine. That's why they call it "personal" relationship . . .but the "they" I speak of being the church, don't really understand what that really is. Because if they did, they wouldn't do the same thing we did with that couple . . ."because you're not of our group, you gotta leave . ." I don't think that's how love truly operates and I wouldn't take those steps again today . . .but . . .when I was a child . . .I was just being a child back then, even though I'm not so sure had anyone tried telling me that, that I would have agreed with them. But that's what religion does. It doesn't make you mature . . .just old. Crying or Very sad

46 Re: "Judgement" on Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:55 pm


Nathan, Mark,

I love you both deeply. You both have been an instrumental part of my life and I am very thankful before the Lord for you both. I appreciate all the input on this very difficult subject.

The Lord is using you here to demonstrate something to us all. You have both together illustrated two sides of the very same coin, although I am not sure you fully understand what is written on the side opposite yourself. That is my opinion of course and just a little reminder to prefer your brother.

But there is a much bigger picture that occurs to me here as I was reading through this thread. I was not impressed to follow the subject until now. I am going to come at the subject from a completely different angle, and you would expect no less I am sure.

First, I believe you and the others here are overcomers with everything in me. There is nothing more dear to my heart than this very thing. I believed, and have always believed, and still believe that you are overcomers. This means that you are destined to fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles when it becomes manifest on the earth. How will we know when that happens? All the things pertaining to the overcomers will become clearly seen, which is illustrated throughout the new testament.

I know you both personally and I know your failures. I know what you have done because you have shared those things with me. Your flaws, your struggles, your wins and losses. I could judge these things in a manner that disqualifies you as an overcomer. Often we see that kind of thing in religion. Also, I could judge those same things as victorious, depending on my mind. The real question is what does Jesus say?

Rev 2:17 To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

The white stone is the compliment to the black stone. This is a reference to the Urim and Thumin. The white stone was liberation and the black stone was condemnation. Under the law when the physical stones were used on the breastplate of the Priest, there was a very clear judgment that was meted out to the transgressor. Things literally were black or white, and the judgment often had serious results.
But notice that for the overcomer, there is no black stone. There is only a yes and an amen. This is not because the law passed away for we know that it will not pass away until all be fulfilled. In my prophetic chart, this is still some days away.. say 1000 years or more?

So, for the overcomer, something else has changed that would eliminate the black stone. I submit to you all that it is the mind that has changed.

The reason why we all had such a powerful dialog on the mind of Christ was to reveal the destiny, as it were. Then the Lord is now revealing things contrary to His Mind, even through this thread. It is not by chance….. Got cha.

Roger Roth taught me that he is sometimes slow to revelate out loud. The reason was that he discovered he came under judgment for everything that his mouth spoke. If he personally was not up to par with the revelation, he then came under judgment. That judgment was that he was found wanting and in need of the thing he was speaking about. Therefore, a process from the Lord would come to build in him that thing for which he lacked. When I heard this, I shouted to my engine room, “All systems STOP!!! Full Reverse!!!” The intense revelation was the reason for so much pain in my life. I pulled way back because I was tired of hurting and being proven sort of a hypocrite in everything that I was speaking.

I embrace it much better now, but it has been five hard years to rest in this.

This subject is not so important when it is used as a ruler to measure the events and circumstances around us. Either way, God’s will is always accomplished for those who continue in His ways. The bigger issue is the mind of Christ.

As long as you make any judgment apart from the way God would judge, you are yourself trying to be like God. The very thing Adam did in the garden. The antidote? Take on the mind of Christ. This is a difficult thing, because even if we judge with His mind, we still do things contrary to His mind. Therefore, it is a process of maturation.

Taking on the mind of Christ begins in agreement with the Mind of Christ. In my sabbatical of Grace, that lasted about 5 years, I totally threw away the Law. Indeed, God’s grace was sufficient and He never left me. I did however, leave Him many times. I was angry and sinning, but God never ever left me. It was a necessary experience for me. I returned to the law without religion, focusing on the facet that it was a testimony of who He was. By using this as a looking glass, I started to become transformed from glory to glory, the biblical way, by beholding Him. The law is a very good look at who the Lord is.

In time, I began to realize that the Law was perfect in all regards. Granted, it revealed many places where I was not like Him, but I came to understand that God’s ways were best. I began to agree with Him on all accounts, a first for my life at the age of 41, which honestly had never been the case before. I received a word later on about ruling and reigning with Him.

Most Christians are taught that they will eventually rule and reign and even judge angels. Perhaps, but what the Lord showed me was quite contrary. Unless I overcame my personal judgments of matters, I would not be fit to rule or reign, and certainly would have no business in judging angels. Any time I relied on my own judgments, I was effectively rejecting His. To take on this mind of Christ, I would first have to be in agreement with Him, so that I would never be tempted to make judgments on my own behalf.

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Get that? All judgment is committed to the Son. You never come to a place where you stop trying to be God until you understand that all judgments are committed to Him alone. Then, to make a right judgment, you must get that judgment from Him.

This is what I believe about this situation. Christ sees far more than I see. I can judge based on what I see and what I understand, but in many cases that is not enough. I am thinking of the sinner that was horribly abused their whole life and now lives in the midst of many problems. How much grace do we give? 70 x 7? This is always the dilemma.

Where sin abounds, grace doth much more abound. If you haven’t extended grace to the point that others are not accusing you of being soft on sin, then you haven’t even touched the level that Paul did, let alone Christ. Jesus was accused all the time for not being hard on sinners. He was just able to see the heart, where the Pharisee could not. What is it that actually changes a person?

Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

There is a day when the grace of God runs dry. That is not for us to decide, especially if we are taking cues from our God. When we come to a place where we no longer judge according to our own will, we are knocking on the door of the mind of Christ. The bible states this explicitly.

John 5:30
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

This is how we become one with Him as He is with the Father. The trick is not to have actions that are based on situations, but based on His insight and perspective in all circumstances. Again another powerful verse, here:

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Overcomers are overcoming the propensity to usurp the throne of God. In all religious circles, there is a tendency for people to be very, very sensitive to behavior. I do not see this ultra-orthodox behavior in anyone in the bible, except the Pharisees. Having been one myself, I can tell you that I bore no fruit for most of my walk. Only now, do people finally listen and respond and it isn’t because my shadow fell on them or my tassels brushed them as I walked by. It is because I am practicing the judgment of God on them. I get down and pray. I seek what God says about them. I hear the things that extend the grace of God unto the person. Then I repeat it to them. Is that any different than the earth walk of Christ? Judgment has a “for” and an “against”. The handwriting (tablets of the law) was against us and contrary to us. This was abolished in His flesh. This is why we can always find a place in Christ that is “for” the other person. We need merely to stand in the place of righteousness and seek it for our brethren.

47 Re: "Judgement" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:52 am


Another timely Scripture Verse Of The Day sent by Karen to the Wisconsin loop today that seems to perfectly fit in with our situation here as well.

And thank you Todd for the word you've shared. I so appreciate the river flowing through you and I receive this with open arms.

Galatians 5:13-15 The Message
It is absolutely clear that God has called you to a free life. Just make sure that you don't use this freedom as an excuse to do whatever you want to do and destroy your freedom. Rather, use your freedom to serve one another in love; that's how freedom grows. For everything we know about God's Word is summed up in a single sentence: Love others as you love yourself. That's an act of true freedom. If you bite and ravage each other, watch out--in no time at all you will be annihilating each other, and where will your precious freedom be then?

48 Re: "Judgement" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:48 pm


The irony is that we think we are free when we are making the decisions according to our own understanding, but those things always lead to traps and some form of prison. The life in Christ is pictured as slavery (bondservant), but in reality is perfect freedom, because we are not restrained externally, but internally by the love of God and the love towards God (Heb 6).

There comes a time when all ruling and reigning ceases. Therefore, judgment has also reaches an end.
1 Cor 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

The quintessential word here being “till”. There is a thread that runs through the heart of a person, and I am guessing it is in the makeup of all people. When oppression comes upon a person, they resist and even rebel, but not so with Christ. He was led as a sheep to the slaughter. He was obedient even unto death. There is something in His makeup that allowed him to submit without fault or turning.

In our lives, we fail because we are not quite 100% steadfast as He was. Of course, this is by design. We are reigned over because we are not executing our paths to the degree that He demonstrated. That of course is addressed or fulfilled by taking on the mind of Christ. In that is freedom and in Christ there is no longer any condemnation….Rom 8.The law of liberty IN Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.., Death is where we need to focus if we truly want to understand judgment…. But I am afraid to go there….People who are practicing judgment need their hell, and they will fight you to the death to keep it.

49 Re: "Judgement" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:36 pm


Yup, yup, yup. That was exactly the conversation I had with the regional supervisor of the denomination I was pastoring in. When another pastor in town found out that I didn't preach hell like everybody else, he called the corporate office and they contacted the regional supervisor who called me directly I was told that I did not have the "priviledge" to preach any other gospel than the Foursquare Gospel.

I had to even promise him that I'd never preach my version of hell anymore. That was yet another nail in the religious coffin that led us out of the church. Up to that point in my life, I guess I always thought "the" gospel was everyone's gospel. But in order to preach "the" gospel, you actually have to leave the entire religious system behind you.

So many people "in" the system immediately balk at the very idea of quitting church. Why . . .the church has done so much "good" in people's lives! Marriages are restored! Relationships are strengthened. People have dedicated their entire lives to the ministries of the church, to help other people, to bring people together in a place of worship so the Spirit can minister to them . . .how could you even "think" that God isn't in all of that?

On the surface, those sound like really good arguments. but at the same time, it reminds me again of what the disciples were doing in the very beginning of Matthew 24 as they seemed to be trying to calm Jesus anger down by reminding him of all the HUMAN EFFORT people have put in the church system to honor God.

Yet not only did Jesus not stand down so as to not offend their ego, he became even more radical by telling them that the very monuments those men put all their sweat and tears into building were about to come crashing down, completely. Freedom comes at the cost of religion's death. I'll take that any day of the week and twice on Sundays!!

50 Re: "Judgement" on Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:33 pm


This is so good guys. I think one of the hardest things that as humans we have to face is, to stop doing, doing, doing, and just "BE". I have met people in my life that if their not doing something for someone or taking them somewhere, or giving someone something, or buying something for someone, they literally go into a deep depression. They feel like their life isn't even worth getting up out of bed for. And I've found that money is extremely important to them because of this.

But when it comes right down to it, The Lord revealed to me that they have nothing of themselves to give. They've been hurt so much over time, and so abused, that they themselves need Him to heal them, but, until they turn to Him, they continue on in this same pattern. And it's heartbreaking to see them go through this time and time again. Motives for things we do, is something we all must face eventually. Why did I say all of this? Mainly because of what Nathan was saying with most of the people still in Religion. I think, it gives them a certain kind of high to always be involved in something. I think that's what they call By-polar, there are highs and lows, they can't never seem to find a place of settlement.

Now, how does all of this apply to Judgement? I personally believe that as The Holy Spirit begins to Reveal Himself to us, in the Light of Him, we first become very condemned because we see ourselves as so far from what He is and in the Natural mind there is just no way of attaining to that so we go into these other places to make ourselves feel good, for a while, instead of facing the inevitable which is Death like ya'll have said.

It really is "not" conforming to His image, but "Transforming" by seeing Him. Boy, I sure did babel a lot on this did'nt I? lol.

PS. Bet you thought I was done huh? Very Happy

Now, that is to not say that they church hasn't done things that are good for others. Or that giving and such have there rightful place. But the motive behind such is most definitely something that should be revealed by The Holy Spirit.

Ok, I'm done now. Very Happy


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