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1 "Judgement" on Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:47 pm


Instead of derailing the matrix thread . . .hijacking I think they call that . . . I thought we'd spin off on a separate thread and allow this topic to work itself through . . . I'm taking the last couple posts on this subject and just pasting them over to this one and then comment after that.


I may say that I do not "judge," but merely "discern the spirits," whether they be of God or not. But I enter into a danger zone here, too. On the one hand, someone is likely going to be injured by my pontification, especially if this happens to be a "spirit" that he possesses and has perhaps become fond of. And I wonder if Christ's parable about the wheat and tares might be telling on this point:

Mat 13:24-30 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; (25) but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. (26) But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. (27) So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' (28) He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' (29) But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. (30) Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "

I, for one, do not want the job of "reaper," and definitely not before the time He has appointed!

There is one other pit that I can anticipate in this. What is this "blasphemy against the Spirit" that Jesus speaks of?

Mat 12:25-32 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. (26) If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? (27) And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. (28) But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. (29) Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. (30) He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. (31) "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. (32) Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

The thought has come to me that Jesus is speaking of our crediting a work of God to Satan. I do not know this to be true and I rather hope that it isn't, for I can remember times when I have thought I was witnessing the devil in an evil act against God and come to find out that it was God Himself Who caused it to be after all. Maybe this is the truth of it in all cases, for is our God not sovereign? Again, I hope I have this wrong, for the thought of unforgiven sin seems unbearable. Somebody help me to understand this another way if it is possible.

Last edited by DavidHarreld on Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

Krisis"...a fascinating word. Like so many other english words, we do not enjoy the nuances of the word "judgment" in the original languages. When we sit as a judge of another man, we take a position of great peril. Because of that fact, we have learned that mercy triumphs over judgment and we all have needed, and do continue to need mercy.

That having been said, Judgment is not a determination that someone is "going to hell" and needs to be saved. We can see from the words that come from the heart whether a person is in the flesh or in the spirit. Peter was in the spirit when he answered Jesus: "You are the Christ" as confirmed by Jesus Himself when He said that no man had revealed this to Peter except the Spirit. In the very same chapter, Jesus says that he has come to offer His life as a ransom for all and we now see Peter taking Jesus aside to correct Him. Peter is then rebuked: "Get thee behind me satan." Peter was judged. Ananias and Saphira lied to the Holy Ghost and were judged. There are other examples as well as the book of Judges and the examples of Deborah and Gideon and others.

The world is in crisis....it is under judgment. There are two errors to which we succumb. The first is that we judge with human judgment or religious judgment and make the wrong decision. Having learned that we do not have the right or capacity to judge, we then swing over into the other ditch and judge nothing..."It's all good." It isn't all good and it isn't all righteous. Righteous judgment comes from the heart of Christ and recognizes the heart. "Some show the law written on the heart."

There is no question that the greatest error has been on the side of too much judgment rendered all together too quickly, but that does not excuse the fact that too many refuse to exercise judgment (call it discernment or whatever) and permit and accept things that should be disallowed. We do not judge another man as to sin, for we do not know what measure of light he walks in and it is to his own master that he stands or falls. At the same time, 1 Cor 6:2 tells us that the Saints shall judge the world and should judge even the smallest matters...including the angels. Are we not to judge prophecy??

I know that the pride that judges too harshly and too quickly and too erroneously and ultimately is wrong, is a major blemish for the "church". At the same time, the foolishness of the "church" and its gullibility makes it susceptible to the lies and manipulation of this world. Our sword needs to be sharpened, our discernment quickened and our senses strengthened to discern good and evil. It is not that the world does not need judges, it is that it needs the judges of God to bring deliverance from deception and bondage....at least that is my opinion...(subject to change should the Lord allow).

First thing that jumps as me is the reference to the "unforgiveable sin". This JUST came to me when I read that. I gotta pull that verse back up . . . it's always been assumed that "we" can "offend" the Holy Spirit by blaspheming against Him. Think about this . . . all of the autrocities that Hitler green-lighted, none of them were beyond the forgiveness of God . . .Judas, the very one that turned Jesus over for crucifixion, still . . .forgiveness was greater. Hanging on the cross, about to breathe his last breath, Jesus called out forgiveness on the very ones that were torturing him. But "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" . . .well . . .that's a whole other story. Or . . .are we missing something?

The verse in question states . . .
(32) Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

What if . . . what if this message isn't addressing with God not forgiving us . . .but what if it means we're disabling ourselves of "receiving" and "rendering" forgiveness to others? When we assume the role of the Holy Spirit, we disable our ability of forgiving and being forgiven. I think that needs to soak in a bit.

I gotta tell you before showing you . . .I hadn't read the Message translation until "after" I just saw this. It's another paradigm shift for me.

the original text is the first thing pasted in this post. So if you want to compare "that" translation with the one I'm using here, feel free. 32 is the verse pertaining to the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

25-27 Jesus confronted their slander. “A judge who gives opposite verdicts on the same person cancels himself out; a family that’s in a constant squabble disintegrates; if Satan banishes Satan, is there any Satan left? If you’re slinging devil mud at me, calling me a devil kicking out devils, doesn’t the same mud stick to your own exorcists?

28-29 “But if it’s by God’s power that I am sending the evil spirits packing, then God’s kingdom is here for sure. How in the world do you think it’s possible in broad daylight to enter the house of an awake, able-bodied man and walk off with his possessions unless you tie him up first? Tie him up, though, and you can clean him out.

30 “This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you’re not on my side, you’re the enemy; if you’re not helping, you’re making things worse.

31-32 “There’s nothing done or said that can’t be forgiven. But if you deliberately persist in your slanders against God’s Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives. If you reject the Son of Man out of some misunderstanding, the Holy Spirit can forgive you, but when you reject the Holy Spirit, you’re sawing off the branch on which you’re sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.

33 “If you grow a healthy tree, you’ll pick healthy fruit. If you grow a diseased tree, you’ll pick worm-eaten fruit. The fruit tells you about the tree.

34-37 “You have minds like a snake pit! How do you suppose what you say is worth anything when you are so foul-minded? It’s your heart, not the dictionary, that gives meaning to your words. A good person produces good deeds and words season after season. An evil person is a blight on the orchard. Let me tell you something: Every one of these careless words is going to come back to haunt you. There will be a time of Reckoning. Words are powerful; take them seriously. Words can be your salvation. Words can also be your damnation.”

2 Re: "Judgement" on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:09 pm


So much good stuff that was said . ..so much to play with!!

The world is in crisis....it is under judgment. There are two errors to which we succumb. The first is that we judge with human judgment or religious judgment and make the wrong decision. Having learned that we do not have the right or capacity to judge, we then swing over into the other ditch and judge nothing..."It's all good." It isn't all good and it isn't all righteous. Righteous judgment comes from the heart of Christ and recognizes the heart. "Some show the law written on the heart."

Um . . .I'm not really seing it "under judgment" for the reason being again . . .it would be saying more is required than the grace God has given. Where sin abounds . . .grace abounds even more. For me, the judgment then is grace. I do believe however, that the world is reaping what it has sown. It's under the consequences of it's own choices. Which in that case we could be saying the same thing. Only using different words.

we then swing over into the other ditch and judge nothing..."It's all good

Hmmm . . .what's another way I could put this. For me, when Jesus said we'd know the tree by it's fruit, it was not to bring judgment upon the tree, but instead, it was to realize we don't want to be eating of it's fruit.

I know religious people . . we all do . . .but to go to them and tell them their fruit is bad . . . now all I've accomplished is I've just ticked the entire tree off. I guess it's again in the perspective of the one viewing the tree. In real time, I know people who just have bad temperments. Now, I'm not about to go up to them and tell them that. Nor am I going to make an attempt to make them better. In fact, I may just avoid them all together.

But for the sake of argument, lets say I have no choice but to work with, live with these same people. Do I really believe the light in me has the power and ability to change the atmosphere in any room through my presence in that room? If so, then what's the most effective way to reverse the sourness of the fruit of the other guy? Would it not be to identify, acknowledge and verbalize the light that "is" in them?

It's the old addage you can draw more flies with sweetness than vinigar. Which once you think about that . . .doesn't make that much sense because flies aren't drawn to sugar . . .they're drawn to death. But you get the intent . . .right?

In another scenario, say you see one person abusing another. Not violently, but religiously maybe. Perhaps a wounded person came to you and confided in you offenses done by another. . . this happens a lot in ministry by the way. I found myself coming to the place that even though it may "appear" to be appropriate thing to do, in going to the offender and telling them to stop it . . .that really isn't my place. I think we blaspheme the Holy Ghost when we take those matters into "our" hands and approach the wrong people.

You know the story of the guy that was beaten and left for dead? And the good guy . . .representing Christ of course, came to his aid, tended to his wounds, put him up for the night and promised the inn keeper he'd return and pay for any added expenses concurred by the patient??? No where in there did it indicate that anyone hunted down the abusers . . .it's not our place to try to enforce order to the abusers. It is our place to bring healing to those who've been abused.

At least that's how I'm seeing it . . .

3 Re: "Judgement" on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:13 pm


cross-eyed wrote:
31-32 “There’s nothing done or said that can’t be forgiven. But if you deliberately persist in your slanders against God’s Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives. If you reject the Son of Man out of some misunderstanding, the Holy Spirit can forgive you, but when you reject the Holy Spirit, you’re sawing off the branch on which you’re sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.

Now, there's comfort in these words, Nathan! I just couldn't smoke that one out, and my mind was wont to fill in the gaps for me. I knew it just didn't fit in with what I knew about Him. The thought that I would be fully reconciled to my Creator, yet He would still hold a little grudge against me sure seemed absurd on its face. . .

I've never seen this Message translation before. Sounds pretty irreverent to me. Cool Almost as if it could have been written by one of the sons of thunder in their early years!

4 Re: "Judgement" on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:04 pm


cross-eyed wrote:I know religious people . . we all do . . .but to go to them and tell them their fruit is bad . . . now all I've accomplished is I've just ticked the entire tree off. I guess it's again in the perspective of the one viewing the tree. In real time, I know people who just have bad temperments. Now, I'm not about to go up to them and tell them that. Nor am I going to make an attempt to make them better. In fact, I may just avoid them all together.

But for the sake of argument, lets say I have no choice but to work with, live with these same people. Do I really believe the light in me has the power and ability to change the atmosphere in any room through my presence in that room? If so, then what's the most effective way to reverse the sourness of the fruit of the other guy? Would it not be to identify, acknowledge and verbalize the light that "is" in them?

You remind me of a beautiful story in Genesis. Jacob had just wrestled with the Lord and He changed his name from Jacob to Israel.

Gen 32:28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

What does it mean that Jacob prevailed? A clue can be found in the name that God gave to him, for Israel means, literally, God rules. Jacob had just discovered something very central to God's true nature, and that is what I believe was meant by him "prevailing."

Next scene, his brother Esau is coming to meet him--probably to kill him--as Jacob had done his brother very dirty back in the day when he thought that he had to do some conniving and ruling on his own in order to get his way. This time, Israel had wisely taken his petition to God that he might find favor with his brother. After sending ambassadors and entreaties ahead of him to Esau's advancing columns,

Gen 33:8-17 Then Esau said, "What do you mean by all this company which I met?" And he said, "These are to find favor in the sight of my lord." (9) But Esau said, "I have enough, my brother; keep what you have for yourself." (10) And Jacob said, "No, please, if I have now found favor in your sight, then receive my present from my hand, inasmuch as I have seen your face as though I had seen the face of God, and you were pleased with me. (11) Please, take my blessing that is brought to you, because God has dealt graciously with me, and because I have enough." So he urged him, and he took it. (12) Then Esau said, "Let us take our journey; let us go, and I will go before you." (13) But Jacob said to him, "My lord knows that the children are weak, and the flocks and herds which are nursing are with me. And if the men should drive them hard one day, all the flock will die. (14) Please let my lord go on ahead before his servant. I will lead on slowly at a pace which the livestock that go before me, and the children, are able to endure, until I come to my lord in Seir." (15) And Esau said, "Now let me leave with you some of the people who are with me." But he said, "What need is there? Let me find favor in the sight of my lord." (16) So Esau returned that day on his way to Seir. (17) And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, built himself a house, and made booths for his livestock. Therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.

I see a wonderful order here: Recognize God's sovereignty. . .see his face even in your enemies. . .Succoth. Ahhh, Succoth: the place I want to be!

5 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:29 pm


THIS THREAD is one I have had a problem with for a very long time. Not with disagreeing with it but rather not knowing the difference. Yesterday when I read it (last night) I guess I was just tired and I'm glad I put it down and came back to it this morning when I could read it with more clarity. Because this morning, it has come to life in me what you are saying. My problem has been in not knowing the difference. For every finger I've pointed at someone else they have been pointed back at me and, believe me, it's not fun when it's happening. I was the one with mud on my face. Shocked Embarassed

I certainly don't want the position of judging someone when I don't know their heart. Only God knows a man's heart. And the sovreignty of God is something I never understood until a few years ago. He walked me through a place where He made it very clear to me of His sovreignty. That was NO FUN either. Shocked

Therefore, in this process I have been going through a place where "all is good" and like you said, all is not good. So, then lately I have been praying for God to show me the difference. One morning I was praying and asking Him questions about judgment and justice. I couldn't understand how a country could have no laws. They may not solve problems completely because our jail and judicial systems have failed miserably but there is some order that brings some peace in the process. Many have been found innocent that had previously been found guilty. Now, I know that I'm using a literal message here that has more spiritual meaning than anything to me. But, in order to paint a picture of this, please bear with me in this picture that was painted before me. After long prayers over this, for many many months, that particular morning I woke up and how I ended up looking at pictures of Lady Justice in all of our halls of justice in this country, I felt the urge to really examine the picture more closely. She is blindfolded with a sword in her right hand that is not drawn but is down by her side and a pair of scales in her other hand. Then a question was posed to me about something that had recently happened. Casey Anthony was used as an example. There was outrage across the country when she was found "not guilty" by 12 of her peers (the jury) and she was set free. Then the question was posed to me, is she really free though? Is her family really free now? The answer to both questions was no, for me that is. Then another question was posed to me, do you believe there is justice still coming to her and her family? I had to answer, yes. Their lives are forever changed. Casey can't go out of her house. She is now in a sort of wilderness period and knowing how things have happened in my own family and the awful things that can happen and be so cruel. What I learned in the process of all of this was that just because the literal court sets one free, God's purpose in setting a man's right thinking in order does not stop there. He does change our thinking into one that is in line with what He desires and uses many different methods to do this. Lady Justice may be blind but God is not. His desire is to bring freedom to His creation.

Now, back to what my question is, is having gone in a completely different direction from where I was a long time ago, I now find myself at the other end of the spectrum, so to speak. I think you answered this (I believe it was Nathan) in your post about bringing His presence into a room of co-workers, family, whatever the case may be and changing the environment we are surrounded with. I don't know that I have this perfected yet, in my own struggles but, I am beginning to have more understanding of this.

Please continue sharing in this thread, any of you who have been faced with it. It's not my understanding of much of it that is wrong (perhaps) or maybe it is. It's the how to go about it when you're faced with something that you've been lying down to and not knowing what to do or how to let His presence come through us in these situations. Seeing Him in them is very "enlightening" for me. Many times I've walked into a situation where the guns were loaded before I ever got in the door, not because of something I had done but rather the defenses were up with the sword drawn because of something that had been done to the other person by someone else. I don't know about others here, but, I know I sure need to have more understanding in the differences related in all of these scriptures posted here.

I know I don't want to be a reaper because there has been a time that my field had been full of weeds among the wheat and that harvest did come in, reaping what I had sown. It was a terrible time. I also noticed, though, that when we have a whole forest full of trees, the land owners around here plough a fire break around the plots they want to clean up and it's called a fire break. Then they set the forest on fire. All of the weeds are burned and the next year, the grass comes back underneath the trees all nice and fresh and clean. That's speaks to me too. Jesus talked about digging around a tree and nurturing it for a year and then if it didn't produce any fruit, it was then to be cut down. So, what's that all about?

Also, He was not shy about His return answers to questions posed to Him by the "religious" sect of the day. But, very patient and loving and kind to the rest of the world. This is where I get lost.

Again, let me say, thank you for making this into a complete new thread. It's helped in my understanding of something that has been needed and questions I've not been able to see answers to in many areas.

Bless you all and much love to you! Smile

6 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:52 pm


This is actually becoming one of my favorite topics, believe it or not. Wink Because it causes things in me that I either didn't know were there, or didn't "realize" that I was bound by them . . .perhaps "ignorance" would fit in both those categories. At any rate, I have once again found myself beyond where I used to be on this.

Being raised in a very fundamental church and family, when I first blossomed into my own ministry of teaching that the church I was attending at the time, "judgement" had a whole different connotation than it does now.

I do have a question to ask though . . . when you look around your surroundings and your seeing all this chaos, doom, gloom and death . . . what "eyes" are you seeing through? Natural or spiritual? I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say when you see darkness, when you identify death, you're looking through your natural reasoning and logic. When you see through spiritual eyes believe it or not, what you see will not be death, doom and gloom. It will cause you to "ascend" to where all things are already completed.

The moment we/I start focusing on "this" realm . . .in literally seconds, it becomes overwhelming. This political thing going in is enough to make ya gag and there's no sign of any slowing down. The church is almost shaking in anticipation to start it's ranting about the end of the world and armageddon and all that rhetoric with all the anti-christian events going on around us.

The one thing I told the church before I left, several times over, there's a reason why God has extended his grace for us to see these kingdom principles and I don't think it's so we can become more educated. I think it's so that we'll not be distracted by the natural events taking place around us. There's a reverberating call that's continual . . .walk in the spirit . . .walk in the spirit . . .walk in the spirit . . . it never ceases.

In the ascended places we judge angels . . .we discern the message going forth. We extend God's grace because it was extended to us. It's got nothing to do with keeping individuals in line with what we think truth is. It's like trying to herd cats when we do that. That's why it's pretty much a requirement to allow the Father to transform our weapons into plowshares. Religious judgment is warfare.

It is the recipe of law that dictates to us "if you do "this", then "that" is going to happen to you as a result." Even many people to believe that the whole world will be redeemed also believe that there's still some form of disciplinary activity happening with those "really bad" guys after they die. Their heads may have opened enough to accept the cross is greater than the sin in the world, but they still can't grasp the concept that the cross is greater than the sin in the world.

Did you get that? Yeah, I repeated myself. But what I'm saying is, either what happened at the cross is the final say, or it isn't anything. Either ALL are redeemed by that one event, or they're not. It's not the cross . . .and if you were a Hitler, then there's more punishment later . . ."then" you go to heaven. At the end of the day, grace pays the bill for ALL!!! Judgement is not correction, it's redemption!! If the Father has forgiven me of all of "my" misalignments and shortcomings . . .what gives me the right to point my finger at the next guy and "judge" their misalignments and shortcomings? We're ALL saved by GRACE!

Those of us who've found this to be a reality in "this" realm are also required to plant those seeds of life into others. To him who much is given . . .we've been given more than our heads can keep up with, so plant what seeds we identify with and God'll get the increase.

Let the Holy Ghost be the one to "pass" whatever judgment is needed. But keep in mind, the identity of the Holy Ghost is a "comforter" . . .so don't get too upset when you pray fire to fall on your enemy and they . . .win the lottery or something. what isn't fair in our logic and reasoning is what God's grace is all about.

Is everything OK? It "becomes" OK when my words of encouragement and support start changing the atmosphere. Worry about nothing, pray about everything. Rather than bring a negative response in judgment down upon someone, send up a word of praise instead. Just see if it doesn't make a huge difference.

7 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:52 pm


Nathan, I can't tell you what this thread has meant to me.
I find myself saying Amen!! Yes!!! all through what your saying.

We are "Just" because He has "Justified us"...
We are "Forgiving" because He has "Forgiven us"...
Freely He has given, Freely we give.

This is what I woke up to a little while ago. I had read your post this morning and when I went to nap, I was meditating on what you said before Him, and that's what I heard when I woke.

I couldn't agree more about, if we see darkness, doom and gloom, what eyes are we looking through? To the pure all things are Pure, but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Did ya catch that? To those that are defiled and Unbelieving?
In another translation, it says those that are not clean, but we are clean, we have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

I used to struggle with this too, but when you've been put into a place of ministering to others, as I have, this is something you deal with on a weekly basis. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. I do believe this is for ministry and not judgment. Jesus knew very well the hearts of those He talk with and heard, His own and the Religious of His day. But He did not Judge them, but He did discern them, why, so He could know what to answer, and what to ask. The Word itself Judges.

I think that's why we should be more quick to Listen, rather than speak. Can we know the heart's of men, I say yes, when we listen, really listen.

Thanks Nathan for opening this up. We are to keep our minds on things above and not on things of the earth. As you say the ascended place, where all things are finished, you know, I think I'm becoming Cross-eyed too. Very Happy



8 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:23 pm


Judgment is a bigger part of our religious backgrounds than we give it credit for. If you really think about it, the majority of doctrines out there, they all have the "final judgment" looming over them. Their reasoning for not judging is because the bad guys will get what they've got coming to them in the end. But if they knew the Father in the way that he's revealing his nature to us, they would not only "not" say that, they would repel from that all together.

As we went through Revelation, the book, I found myself continually repeating that God was not out to destroy men, he was out to destroy the "man" in men. But when men see through man's eyes, they immediately assume the death and destruction is the removal of ungodly men. But instead it's INWARD. God is not removing ungodly men from the earth . . .he's removing ungodliness from within "my" earth . . .my flesh. The judgment is not the separation of ungodly men from godly men . . .it's the separation of ungodliness from MAN. Thus, the GREAT WHITE throne judgement.

White, the color resembling purity. You approach the throne in dirty rags, you walk away in righteousness. Judgement isn't something to fear, it's something to celebrate.

It's another reason why "we're" not the one's doing the judging, we don't make each other righteous. There's only One that can do that, and it aint us.

I'm having to much fun with this!!

9 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:44 pm


So true, So true. I think it was Eby that I was reading one day and he was talking about how the Religious has taken The White Throne, and made it Black, by associating it with death, and destruction, rather than Redemption. Like you when I read anything in Rev. now, I see Redemption through His judgments in every line.

Have you ever look at the "Pavement" where Jesus stood before Pilate?

Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Joh 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

You betcha, Behold our King!! He stood in the place of Judgment for us.


From G3037 and a derivative of G4766; stone strewed, that is, a tessellated mosaic on which the Roman tribunal was placed: - Pavement.


Of Chaldee origin (compare [H1355]); the knoll; gabbatha, a vernacular term for the Roman tribunal in Jerusalem: - Gabbatha.

I had to look up the word Knoll, I didn't know what it meant.

A small natural hill,
[archaic] The sound of a bell rung slowly to announce a death or a funeral or the end of something

Don't ya just love the Living Word?


10 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:48 pm


That's what I was trying to say in my previous post Nathan. It's not what man's view is about but what God's ultimate purpose is for mankind and that's His righteousness (right thinking) which brings peace and rest. At least, it seems that's what you're saying here or am I not seeing what you're saying?

11 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:49 pm


Oooooo! That's good!! It is finished!! I love it!!

12 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:00 pm


LindaY wrote:That's what I was trying to say in my previous post Nathan. It's not what man's view is about but what God's ultimate purpose is for mankind and that's His righteousness (right thinking) which brings peace and rest. At least, it seems that's what you're saying here or am I not seeing what you're saying?

Hey Sis,
I can't speak for Nathan, but the way I see it is, that The Word when it comes does Judge, and while that is taking place within us, it is never peace and Rest, (while it is going on), usually because we don't understand it's purpose "until" it has finished it's purpose. Then we find what it has accomplished in us, and that is always Redemptive in it's works and that always yields the peaceable fruit of Righteousness and Rest.

That's just my understanding.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.



13 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:11 pm


Thanks Sis! I love you

14 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:43 pm


My apologies for the Bible text with Strong's numbers. It was so useful on e-sword that I hoped that it would paste the same. It did not. I have tried to do a deeper word study on the issue of judgment (for my own instruction and clarification as much as anything) and hope that this effort contributes something to us all. Love,


דּוּן דּין
dı̂yn dûn
deen, doon
A primitive root (compare H113); to rule; by implication to judge (as umpire); also to strive (as at law): - contend, execute (judgment), judge, minister judgment, plead (the cause), at strife, strive.

A primitive root; to judge, that is, pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication to vindicate or punish; by extension to govern; passively to litigate (literally or figuratively): - + avenge, X that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge (-ment), X needs, plead, reason, rule.

A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: - appoint, argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), daysman, dispute, judge, maintain, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove (-r), surely, in any wise.
This word is more commonly translated as: reprove, rebuke, convince, plead, dispute, correct, chasten, argue and even (once) as daysman.
A primitive root; to judge (officially or mentally); by extension to intercede, pray: - intreat, judge (-ment), (make) pray (-er, -ing), make supplication.
This word is rarely translated "judge" but more often as pray, make supplication, intreat and on one occasion (Psalm 106:30) "executed judgment" where Phinehas stopped the plague.
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
In Rom 14:5 One man "esteems" one day.... It means more to determine a matter.
From G303 and G2919; properly to scrutinize, that is, (by implication) investigate, interrogate, determine: - ask, question, discern, examine, judge, search.
This word has more to do with question or examine than judge.

From G2919; a judge (generally or specifically): - judge.


From H6663; rightness (abstractly), subjectively (rectitude), objectively (justice), morally (virtue) or figuratively (prosperity): - justice, moderately, right (-eous) (act, -ly, -ness).

A primitive root; to be (causatively make) right (in a moral or forensic sense): - cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just (-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be, turn to) righteous (-ness).

From H6663; the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).


From H8199; properly a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or (particularly) divine law, individual or collectively), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly justice, including a particular right, or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: - + adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just (-ice, -ly), (manner of) law (-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

From H8199; a sentence, that is, infliction: - judgment.

שׁפוּט שׁפוט
shephôṭ shephûṭ
shef-ote', shef-oot'
From H8199; a judicial sentence, that is, punishment: - judgment.

Feminine of H6414; justice: - judgment.

Feminine of H6416; judicature: - judgment.

A primitive root; to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc.: - appoint, X at all, avenge, bestow, (appoint to have the, give a) charge, commit, count, deliver to keep, be empty, enjoin, go see, hurt, do judgment, lack, lay up look, make X by any means, miss, number, officer, (make) overseer have (the) oversight, punish, reckon, (call to) remember (-brance), set (over), sum, X surely, visit, want.

(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

From G2919; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against [“crime”]): - avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, + go to law, judgment.

From G1342 and G2920; a just sentence: - righteous judgment.

From G1097; cognition, that is, (subjectively) opinion, or (objectively) resolve (counsel, consent, etc.): - advice, + agree, judgment, mind, purpose, will.

Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

From G143; perception, that is, (figuratively) discernment: - judgment.


A primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitively or causatively, literally or figuratively): - be accepted, cast (down, self, [lots], out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell (-ing), fugitive, have [inheritamce], inferior, be judged [by mistake for H6419], lay (along), (cause to) lie down, light (down), be (X hast) lost, lying, overthrow, overwhelm, perish, present (-ed, -ing), (make to) rot, slay, smite out, X surely, throw down.

Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

Having gone through all of the words for Judge, Judgment, Judges, Judging, Judgeth, and Judged; there are a few words that stand out. Much of the business of "Judgment" has to do with decide, determine, discern; in addition to plead, contend, strive, rebuke, chasten, condemn and pray. Trying to get to the meat of the issue, however, it is easy to find many entries in the Old Testament to support the idea that God has not dispensed with the business of judging. Since this is not the point of disagreement, I have chosen not to make many references to OT verses. This does not infer that they are not applicable when put in perspective through the spirit, it just means that the OT side of the pendulum has been emphasized too much and results often in condemnation...not a desired outcome.

That having been said, there are three main words that address the issue in the NT: G2917 Krima, G2919 Krino and G2920 Krisis. There is also another word translated righteous judgment and that is G1341 Dikaiokrisia which is significant. One last word would be G1106 Gnome which tends to have more application to a decision made through the application of knowledge. Since the Greek word "Krisis" is the source of our English word "Crisis", it struck me that it sits at the heart of the issue. Even Hollywood demonstrates this idea in all of its great movies. Somewhere in the course of the book or the movie we come to a character crisis. It is at this point that the denouement of the story is determined. Depending on the "krino" that our hero makes; the decision that sits at the crossroads of life and death, blessing and cursing, etc.; the determination of whether the movie is a tragedy or a comedy (as defined in Shakespeare's day) is settled. Is he really a hero or is the story a tragedy of human failure? Did he or she make the right choice...i.e. judge aright, or did some character defect manifest in a wrong decision (or the failure to decide and let "fate" determine the outcome)? Don't we expect our hero to rise to the challenge and make the right choice? Isn't he or she required to make a judgment call and that major outcomes hang in the balance of that decision? Even the word "balance"....our picture of Lady Justice is of a woman with a blindfold holding a balance in her hands. God Himself states that a false balance is an abomination.

Don't we daily make judgments of little things...some of which can have major outcomes? Can I turn left before that truck gets here, should I stop at that amber light, do I add that spice to the stew, do I set my alarm clock, and on and on we go. How do I respond when that person in authority gets in my face and is wrong? Should I stand my ground or submit to the authority and find another way to address the problem? Do I speak out when I observe corruption? Do I just let that coach continue with those children? Do we just permit murderers to continue? Do we say anything to that person who feels that lines are for other people and is too important to wait his or her turn? What about the thief breaking into my neighbor's home? If I am not to judge anything, then how do I determine right from wrong? It seems quite obvious to me that judgment is required and that the process of growth is the process of learning how to "judge" correctly. Aren't we held responsible to judge our children's behavior and teach them right from wrong...including trying to find a loving, measured consequence to wrong behavior and rewarding and reinforcing right behavior? I do not think that any will disagree to this point. I believe that we can properly conclude that it is important to judge and that we need judges who have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

Now we get to the rub....what if I see my brother taken in a fault? Galatians 6:1 says to "...restore such a one in a spirit of meekness lest you yourself be tempted." How can I restore unless I have first judged that the behavior is a fault (or am I perhaps supposed to wait until my brother confesses his fault to me?) First Corinthians is even more vocal:

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge G2919 them also that are without? do not ye judge G2919 them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth.G2919 Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law G2919 before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge G2919 the world? and if the world shall be judged G2919 by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? G2922 G1646
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge G2919 angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments G2922 of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge G1252 between his brethren?
1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law G2919 with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law G2192 G2917 one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Pro 27:5 Open rebuke H8433 is better than secret love.
Pro 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

I mentioned that the Old Testament was a wide swing of the pendulum. A little background may be in order. Over the years I have come to look for the narrow place that few find. By this, I mean the small place between two extremes. An eye for an eye versus judge not. Religion by its nature tends to take the moral high ground...Mt. Sinai if you will...which we know engenders to bondage. Do this, don't do that and all of the rules and regulations that go from no makeup, to wear dresses only, to fence laws in the Talmud, to more and more rules and regulations ...don't eat, don't touch, etc. Then we come to a place in our walk where we are impressed with the grace of God and how amazing it is. I heard James Robinson say once that if a preacher has not preached grace to the point where it seemed like license, he probably hasn't really preached grace. I have come to understand what he means. We have been justified by grace through faith and that is glorious:

Rom 3:24 Being justified G1344 freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forebearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just,G1342 and the justifier G1344 of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified G1344 by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are now free from the law of sin and death...and yet, we find ourselves under a higher law...the law of life in the spirit. That law requires fruit rather than works. Are not the works still judged? Isn't the whole purpose of the law that we might know sin? And why is that important? Isn't it so that we can measure our progress toward the mark (sin being better defined as "missing the mark" or "falling short" of the mark...that mark being Christ)? Isn't it so that we might judge sin? Are the works of the flesh acceptable? If not, why not? If we are in the flesh, do we stand in the day of judgment or does not the day declare it? Now, if we accept that there is a responsibility to judge sin, and I think that there is, what do we do with the sinner? I believe that it is at this point that the pendulum swings to the other side. To his own master, he stands or falls. Since we are not their masters, the ultimate judgment does not belong to us. Having come to understand that God intends to bring all to salvation and cause every knee
to bow and every tongue to confess, we know that "going to hell" does not mean a place of eternal torment and we know that all of God's creation is accepted in the beloved and will ultimately be restored. Because of that fact, we work to restore everyman but I don't believe that we close our eyes in the meantime and not address the behavior that we have come to realize is sin.

Let's look at some of the verses that support the idea that there is no judgment:

Mat 7:1 Judge G2919 not, that ye be not judged.G2919
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment G2917 ye judge, G2919 ye shall be judged: G2919 and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge G2919 not, and ye shall not be judged: G2919 condemn G2613 not, and ye shall not be condemned: G2613 forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Joh 8:15 Ye judge G2919 after the flesh; I judge G2919 no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment G2920 is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge G2919 him not: for I came not to judge G2919 the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth G2919 him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge G2919 him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge G2919 thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the8 judgment seat G968 of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge G2919 G3767 one another any more: but judge G2919 this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged G350 of you, or of man's judgment: G2250 yea, I judge G350 not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: G1344 but he that judgeth G350 me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge G2919 nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge G2919 you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth G2919 no man, but hath committed all judgment G2920 unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Taken by themselves, these verses suggest that neither Jesus not the Father judge. If put into the larger context of the word, however, they are in tension with the other side of the pendulum (which, quite frankly has a larger mass based upon the number of verses instructing judgment and its consequences). It is this exquisite tension that creates the narrow place that is so elusive. We have come to appreciate that all men will ultimately be saved. But that does not change the fact that there are tares among the wheat and sinners among the saints. While the former times may have been such that judgment was suspended for a season, that season is closing and the day will declare it. As members of Christ's body, the government has been placed upon the shoulders...i.e. closest to the head. Having the mind of Christ and the righteousness of Christ, we can judge all things...leaving the sinner for God to address in the fulness of time. That fulness probably differs for each one but for the whole of humanity the bowls of judgment are full nearly to the brim.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest G2919 them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment G2917 of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath G3709 against the day of wrath G3709 and revelation of [color=red]the righteous judgment G1341 of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation G2372 and wrath,G3709
Rom 2:9 Tribulation G2347 and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law G460 shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged G2919 by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just G1342 before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. G1344
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing G2723 or else excusing G626 one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge G2919 the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge G2919 the world in righteousness G1343 by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

We can talk about the Bema seat or the white throne judgment and distinguish times and seasons but it may just be that Gideon's 300, that have been judging and pulling down father's idols, are not the ones that should shy away from judgment. We should be those that love a rebuke where it is called for (for a wise man loves a rebuke). Rebuking and judging fools in their folly, however, is a fool's errand and will only result in being injured. We judge the debt system and usury, we see the corruption in high places and how truth lies fallen in the streets, we are not ignorant of the things in the world. And yet, we wait and pray, holding these things in our heart until we hear the shout of heaven: "The sword of the Lord and Gideon." Let us sharpen one another and pray for one another and "hold each other's feet to the fire" if that is what is needed to walk uprightly. We only have one reputation to uphold and it does not belong to us.
I understand that "righteous judgment" has a deeper meaning, namely that God because of Jesus Christ, judges all men righteous (as a matter of judicial standing). That does not excuse carnal actions or the appetite of the flesh for sin. Abraham believed and it was imputed to him as righteousness. As the seed of Abraham, we have inherited that standing in a legal manner. (Recall that Abraham did not always do the right thing, even after he believed.) Judicial standing is supposed to progress to an outward manifestation ....i.e. we do the right thing because we have an inner compass that keeps us on the right course. As an old sailor, I have come to appreciate that if you go off course and ignore buoys and lighthouses, that you will probably find yourself shipwrecked upon the shoals or the rocks. Such is the same in life. When we forsake the leading of the Spirit within and violate the law of love, it is not long before we experience consequences that we did not desire....we find ourselves "in hell". Because of the many years of representing christians in the legal system, I have come to understand something that very few attorneys appreciate. For sons (not so much so for bastards who are without chastening) the condition of their heart has much more to do with the outcome of the case than does my skill as an attorney. If they go into court with the wrong attitude, the result is different. When they are willing to lose, should that be the will of God, and are willing to pray for their enemy and pray for the judge and those that are in authority; wonderful victories ensue. I could write for several hours of the testimony of mercy toward people that should have been locked away for years. I can also tell you about self-righteous chrisitians (pastors included) who experienced unjust results that did not make sense until some perspective was added by the Spirit. It took me a few years to learn what I now have seen repeated again and again.

God does judge sin and looks upon the heart. When we, through the Spirit, hear correctly, we too judge, and our judgment is just. When the army of Israel cowered in the face of Goliath, David took the five smooth stones of grace and struck that giant in the head and slew him. If we are afraid of being judged, we will not judge. If, however, the old man of sin has been judged and found wanting and we no longer place any confidence in the flesh but place all of our confidence upon God and not ourselves, what have we to fear? Today, if we will hear His voice...we can arise with trumpets of truth and the word of truth will judge. The sword will be part of the sharp threshing instrument that gives us the teeth of the lion.

Psa 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psa 149:7 To execute H6213 vengeance H5360 upon the heathen, and punishments H8433 upon the people;
Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psa 149:9 To execute H6213 upon them the judgment H4941 written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Last edited by Hibbs on Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

15 Judgment on Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:09 pm


I probably should have read the other posts before just throwing caution to the wind. I appreciate Nathan's point that we can be atmosphere changers when we walk in love. Walking in love can also mean caring enough to struggle with the struggle and address things that are wrong. There is a time to defend the fatherless and the victim. There is a time to turn that one over for the destruction of the flesh. There is a time for every purpose under heaven. While we are of those that are looking above and not beneath, we have been left in the world to be salt and light and salt that has lost its saltiness no longer preserves. Threshing our wheat in the winepress was a good thing for a season but there comes a time to go into the enemy camp and sound the trumpet. I believe that it is for this reason that we are sharpening each other in this forum and challenging each other so that we really do have our senses exercised.

16 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:45 pm


Yeah, most of my comments on this are not geared toward those who aren't already abusers. Which is to say there's no one here that I would even consider needing "judgment" on any level. My points were directed at those that abuse the termonoligies and become enforcers. They "enjoy" being judgmental and they beleive Scripture backs them up to do so.

It becomes problematic many times because I sense they again take things out of context. Yes, Paul may have written admonisments a time or two in Scripture but again, I'm not one to assume that gives me license to judge another. But if they would only keep it "in" context, they'd see that the instruction is coming "from" an apostle to his kids. There's an order established there and a relationship that holds the order together.

In that light, a father brings correction to a son. But there's got to be an acceptance that the son is indeed a son to the one giving correction. Not sure if this is making sense either.

The other way where instruction/correction/judgment could be handed down would be through "permission" again, by the recipient. If they approached and asked for ministering, counsel, or what have you, in that light, they're releasing you to lead them where the Spirit leads you to lead them.

But seldom do people take the time to realize the order. General church population assumes each man for himself to judge another. I don't buy it. If we're called to walk in the spirit, that alone difuses the potential for warfare. If we judge, do we not open ourselves up to walk in judgement as well? The only ones that Jesus exercised any judgment with, was with the religious, those who convinced themselves they were in the place of authority.

For me, it's all still an internal application. The spirit judges the flesh in me, grace is applied and redemption manifests. Does this mean I can do whatever I want? Yeah, it does. But does this mean that when I do whatever I want there won't be consequences for my choices and actions? No, it doesn't. It's as Paul said .. . we can do whatever we want, but there's a consequence to be paid if what we're wanting is carnal desire.

Walking in the spirit dulls the urges to cater to carnal thinking . . .fill your mind with "heavenly" thoughts. The rest takes care of itself.

17 Re: "Judgement" on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:55 pm


I have found much chastisement in all of this. I'm glad you enjoy "judgment" so much, Nathan. You've brought me back to a first love: "Do not judge." This was all I knew for the longest time, even if I wasn't good at it. Along the way I lost this focus. I'm guessing that too much study brought me much weariness. I was alive and vital even when I was the only one I knew who believed we were not to judge, no, not at all.

Thank you for enticing me to return to this path. I hope it is just as simple as that!

18 Re: "Judgement" on Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:21 am


Actually Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head as to why the topic of judgment is sometimes a precarious one. So many things have been ingrained in us by church systems that we've accepted as fact when we find as we "do" enter into kingdom domains that things seem to inadvertantly have a level of confliction.

Remember what Jesus said about how the kingdom operates? The first is last . . .the least is greatest . . .for me, he's saying that kingdom principles are the opposite of natural logic. In natural eyes, judgment is a form of justice, of correction, of discipline and control. But if you can just keep in mind, the spiritual kingdom not only operates differently than the natural kingdom, it operates on opposite principles. That's why this stuff can't be taught. It makes no sense to the human logic to teach. It can only come by way of revelation . . .through relationship . . .which is based on . . .faith.

Entering into the kingdom has also transformed my understanding of what faith is . . . maybe not transformed my thinking . . .maybe instead I should say it's brought the definition of faith up to the forefront of my understanding. It's become a higher priority due to the fact that everything I am is based on faith.

Believing in what can't be seen, accepting what can't be understood.

Easy to say . . .but really hard to actually "do" that.

It's very difficult to lay down my head and accept what I can't understand. But once you pass through that particular threshold, I realized that spiritual understanding is not learned as much as it is birthed. My mind is the seed . . .when I lay it down and let it die, in the process of death it miraculously is reborn into life . . .just like in the natural with any seed that you plant in the ground. In the death of the seed, new life sprouts up from within itself.

It's the same way with seeing. Believing in what can't be seen makes absolutely no sense, but that's the key that leads into revelation. Once we get over that hump, especially the "first time", then the ability to see manifests and it changes everything you look at from then on.

But that doesn't mean everything is peachy from then on. Being able to see what can't be seen is a catch-22 because as powerful as it is to be able to do it, sharing it is a whole other matter.

But for me, walking in the kingdom does just what you mentioned . . .it simplifies everything. Grace uncomplicates it all.

19 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:51 am


cross-eyed wrote:Entering into the kingdom has also transformed my understanding of what faith is . . . maybe not transformed my thinking . . .maybe instead I should say it's brought the definition of faith up to the forefront of my understanding. It's become a higher priority due to the fact that everything I am is based on faith. . .

. . .My mind is the seed . . .when I lay it down and let it die, in the process of death it miraculously is reborn into life . . .just like in the natural with any seed that you plant in the ground. In the death of the seed, new life sprouts up from within itself.

It's the same way with seeing. Believing in what can't be seen makes absolutely no sense, but that's the key that leads into revelation. Once we get over that hump, especially the "first time", then the ability to see manifests and it changes everything you look at from then on.

But for me, walking in the kingdom does just what you mentioned . . .it simplifies everything. Grace uncomplicates it all.

You are speaking of some things that sound so wonderful! This is a way of being that I covet, and you make it sound as if it has become day-to-day reality for you. Can I hope for living this today, or are we speaking of that which will be as if it were already? Can I fully lay down my mind?

20 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:01 am


That's the reason for this forum. I can't be as frank about it anywhere else because people get divisive about it due to the fact that it sounds like nonsense. Oddly, they can accept talking in tongues as a reality in our lives, but they can't be receptive to kingdom principles?

I was just thinking about this earlier this week, Jesus speaks of the river that flows out of our bellies. For me, he's doing the same thing there as he did with the curse on the cross, he's reversing it's effects. In Genesis it speaks about how the serpent's belly will be bound to the earth . . .the core of human nature (belly of man) in bondage to carnal lusts and desires (earthiness)

But when we come into this intimacy with Christ, just as the process of revelation is the rock upon which he builds his church, so it is that this intimate relationship reverses that curse so that the belly of man that was once conformed to earthiness is set free and now, out of that belly flows a river of living water. A beautiful reversal from death into life.

We have a river that flows through our town. It's called the Wapsipennican . . .we call it "the wapsi" for short. I grew up in that river . . .have many tales to tell on our excursions. There's also a dam in our town and they're dropping the water level above the dam so they can work "on" the dam's structure.

But what occured to me is, there are days when my "self" just doesn't feel "on" for spiritual activity. It could be due to things going on in my life that kinda blind-side me, or a tiff I just got in with my wife or what have you. But the truth of it all is . . .no matter what state of "mind" I am in, the Wapsi is always there. It's current never wavers. It's the same calm, peaceful river it's always been regardless of whether or not "I'm" in the right mood for it.

It's the same thing here, spiritually. This river flowing out of us is there regardless of what our own state of mind is in. We have the ability to "let" the river flow out into others, and we have the ability to hold it back. It's like a faucet really. The moment I turn it on, it immediately affects my state of mind . . .it always lifts me up. Which is why I really "love" this forum. I used to be able to let the river flow when I was pastoring, but when I stepped down, I didn't know where the river in me would flow next and I knew I couldn't keep it bottled up, sometimes it feels like I'll explode if there's no release valve.

But the key to remember is, regardless of how you "feel", the river is always there, searching for outlets in you where it can be released. I have another thought on this river but my break is over . . .hope I don't forget it when I come back. Smile

21 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:26 am



Have I told you lately how Grateful to God I am, that you are a part of my journey in Him? As with you all, even if we don't see the same things at the same time, what difference does it make, when I read stuff like this, it makes everything else fall by the way side, in The Light of His Love. cheers

That really touched my heart, I love you it was Beautiful, and so true, loaded with Grace and Love. All I can say is open that mouth and let it flow Brother. We learn as we Grow, or should I say, we learn as we "Flow". And I'm learning that.

Thank you.


22 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:28 am


Awe, thanks, but I can't take the credit . . . it's a God thing . . .half the stuff I say I don't understand myself!! Very Happy

I had forgotten the other part until just now . . . And that is . .

As I stated about the natural river I grew up on . . .there are certain places on it that have become my favorite spots. It occurred to me one day that even though I return to the same place regularly, I throw my lines in the same spots and I miss the same fish (humor) . . . the truth is, the water that is there now, isn't the same water that was there the last time . . .and the water there the last time wasn't the same water that was there before that. And when I come back in the future, it won't be the same water that's there now.

We often identify the name of the river with the water, but the fact is, the water is always changing, always flowing, always advancing. What we're really naming, is the river bed, banks and pathway. In the spirit, we have the same river flowing, but the identity is not the river bed, banks or pathways . . .in the spirit . . .it truly is the river that carries the identity of life.

How many times have you heard the same thing or read the same passage and each time you've gotten something different from it? Same place, same passage . . different water.

I just thought that was kinda cool.

23 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:46 am


have a song about the river . . . check it out in the "music and poems" category Very Happy

24 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:49 am


cross-eyed wrote:We have a river that flows through our town. It's called the Wapsipennican . . .we call it "the wapsi" for short. I grew up in that river . . .have many tales to tell on our excursions. There's also a dam in our town and they're dropping the water level above the dam so they can work "on" the dam's structure.

This is an intimate forum. I fished on the Wapsi when I was young, while visiting my great uncle Pruitt. There was a dam like the one you speak of, one of those beautiful structures where the water rolls over it in a curved sheet. I wonder it it was the same one?

25 Re: "Judgement" on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:59 am


There are several, this one is in Anamosa, where I live. I meant to finish that out . . .I did a sermon once on the river and I did some digging around on the history of the river and it's meaning. Wapsipennican sounds like it would have this great, powerful meaning behind it. But I was so surprised to find . . .all it means is "White Potato". Apparently, when the indians first happened upon it, the river banks were covered with the white blossoms of the wild potato and it left an impression on them so much they named the river after it.

Weird, huh.

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