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1 Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:04 pm

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We have some very learned sisters and brothers on this forum. I count it as a great privilege and pleasure to witness what is unfolding here, which is but a microcosm of what is happening all over the planet. Some of our learning has come from books, but much knowledge is revealed by the Spirit Himself as He writes upon our hearts. Then there is the wisdom which comes from experience, as Solomon can attest to. And not only Solomon, but at least one other cowpoke who noted, "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."

For a reason known only to God, I have been given a heart for Islam. He let me spend a couple years in Iraq during "Operation Iraqi Freedom" (or was that "operation extend the power of mystery babylon"?). The day I left the united states was the day they captured Saddam Hussein, and the day I left Iraq was the day the Iraqi people held their first democratic elections. It was an interesting time--and seemed a good time--to be in ancient Babylon. During that period I still maintained my teaching that christianity was a faith superior to islam, noting the many similarities islam held with catholicism and indeed all of the babylonish religions. Indeed, those who know me know that I am--or rather have been--rather outspoken against religion in all of its forms, whether it be catholicism, protestantism, islam, judaism, government, pseudoscience, medicine, environmentalism, politics, unionism, gay activism, celebrity-worship, football, what have you. It almost seems that my own personal religion has leaned towards taking a delight in slaying sacred cows. Perhaps if the worldly powers had taken more of an interest in making my life comfortable then I might have been more loyal and less of a burr under its saddle . . . Laughing

Something has happened to me in recent years. I can say that it has been most dramatically experienced since the day I made Todd's acquaintance. He introduced me to the doctrine of the "Restoration of All Things" whereby all of God's creation is destined to be restored unto Himself. I had long suspected the Truth in this great idea. Jesus says in Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. And if this is His will, and if God is truly sovereign, doesn't He get what He wants?

So now God has brought Muslims into my life. In particular there is one, Adnan (meaning Eden) who is a young man I invested 15 weeks of classroom time with. Adnan eagerly received my sharing concerning the reflection of God's heart in scripture and in turn shared with me the understanding he has gained from the Quran. I was delighted to discover that his knowledge both complemented and gave further depth and breadth to my own. His love and authority opened my ears, much in the same way as when I was introduced by another man to Christ some 29 years ago. A few weeks later I asked Adnan to recommend a good english translation of the Quran and in a couple days he had it in my hand. Admittedly, I haven't read too much in this book, but I found the first chapter (Sura 1) to be beautiful:



I especially love how I have been offered a new definition for the word "Lord," that is Cherisher and Sustainer. This doesn't so much add to or replace anything of my understanding of Him, as to give me a new focus if I am to have hope to judge with Him according to His mind and heart in this new aeon.

Has Islam become unfairly maligned among modern christians? I believe that it has. There are some very learned scholars who teach that Allah is the "moon god," and that muslims (meaning submitted ones) thus serve a lesser god than we do. I don't know about all of that. Isn't it enough that they put their faith in the One Supreme Being, the Most High God, Creator of all things? Wouldn't we be talking about the same Self-Existent One, even if different languages provide different monikers for the One? Muslims are monotheistic, as are jews and christians and even ancient chinese as it turns out. Muslims believe in the Torah and the Gospels as sacred texts. They also have their Hadith, written after the Quran and commenting on its contents, which may be akin to the Talmud in that respect. And even so with the epistles perhaps? I believe that the Talmud represented a wrong turn towards worshiping the traditions of men vs. Word of God. Does the Hadith represent an Islamic parallel to judaism's Talmud? And now I wonder if the epistles are as divine as the Torah and Gospels. Todd says it is proven that they are, and perhaps I could use a little more information on this because the question has come up once in my life before and I just took it on faith that all 66 books selected by the Westminster Assembly in 1647 to be included in the Authorized Version of the Bible represented everything that the Holy Spirit desired that we hear. I feel rather sheepish for even raising the question, but in this forum I feel safe in doing so. There were many times and places where I might have been stoned for this! I believe that someone here will have the perfect response, both truthful and loving. I have for years believed that, in the words of Chuck Missler, "The great discovery is that the Bible is a message system: it’s not simply 66 books penned by 40 authors over thousands of years, the Bible is an integrated whole which bears evidence of supernatural engineering in every detail!" That under a mathematical analysis it can be shown that everything contained within is of divine origin, and furthermore that nothing has been left out. I have taken this all on faith, but have not verified it for myself. I have seen, however, how the Lord has verified certain passages to me in a very personal and supernatural way.

Some will say that I am over-thinking this, that "this isn't rocket science." Oh, how I have come to hate that expression! The Lord has always come to meet my little faith with evidence which increases it. Remember when Jesus was speaking to Thomas?

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

There are some who are so much more blessed than me! I have always seemed to be needing to see. . .

Why do I have so many questions and so few answers? It was not always so with me! I used to be able to be just as dogmatic as the next guy. He has shown me in so many ways that all is not as it appears, and that when I have come across as being self-assured I have simply not represented Him well at all! I have put a lot upon my Brothers and Sisters here. And it may break your heart when I say I haven't yet arrived at my big question. . .

While Christians--for the most part--have not read the Quran, they seem to be able to invalidate it. Muslims--on the other hand--are taught to read and to revere the Torah and the Gospels. They reverence Mary and Jesus (Isa), and believe in the virgin birth. They seem to believe most of what we believe about Jesus, just not that He is truly God but is instead an esteemed prophet. They also don't seem to buy into our belief that Jesus was crucified. I don't know truly if this is what is taught in the Quran, or whether these are traditions of men. These are bits I have picked up from some new facebook friends and off of the internet. I suppose that I should study the book some more and discover for myself. If only I could read arabic! I would have much more confidence that I was getting my information from somewhere closer to the source.

So now, here is my (big) question, finally. I am persuaded that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, that all that was created was created through Him. I believe that He and the Father are one (in total agreement). I believe that His life, and His sacrifice fulfilled the law and the prophets, and through this final, perfect sacrifice all of our sins are accounted as if they were not. I believe that at His second coming sin is removed from us entirely, and that there is no more need for such "creative accounting." I believe that during the next (or present?) age, the overcomers in Him will rule and reign with Him as He puts all of His enemies (nations, authorities) under His feet, the last enemy being death. I believe that when He has finished this work then He will relinquish His throne to the Father, as there will be no more need for authority or power.

1Co 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Now, what comes of Jesus Christ at the end of His reign? The Father first put His Son in authority, then the Son finishes His work and again becomes subject to the Father. This is difficult for me to smoke out, but I feel that it may be key to reconciling the christian and islamic faiths so both can see that God is indeed sovereign and that He reveals Himself to whomever He chooses and in the time and manner of His choosing.

And before you say it, let me just say it first. I am aware that this may be just all that much "mental masturbation," that my attempts at arriving at a "unified theory" about our Creator misses the point entirely. After all, we are called to love God with all of our hearts and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. It is just as simple as that. Oh, THIS I want to do! And that we love Him because He first loved us. I seem to be hell-bent upon arriving at it the hard way, whereby I am slowly learning to disqualify any platform where I once felt I was solid to stand in judgment. It seems as if I am almost there, even as I have now taken the new stand whereby I love the person yet hate the institution in almost every case. But it seems as if I am destroying myself in this process. Can this be His will? Or is it just more of my own willfulness? And again, I love Him because He loved me first. Is it incumbent upon me to cipher out that love, just to see how much? Is this what we are doing here in this fellowship?

2 Jesus/Isa/Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:24 am

Hibbs


Wow David...that is a lot to try and address. I agree that there is a lot of ignorance and misunderstanding in religion. Years ago I had a client who was a fervent muslim and I borrowed his english translation of the quran and was fascinated to understand how Mohammed came to write the quran. I also came to understand that they accepted the Bible as true and that Mohammed was a sincere seeker trying to understand God.

Over the years I too studied some of the "cults" so that I could address their error and "try to win some." I once subscribed to Plain Truth magazine and enjoyed Herbert W. Armstrong only to feel betrayed over some of his teaching. I could address the watchtower prophecies and disabuse (or abuse) the Jehovah's witnesses that came to the front door by telling them that Brooklyn was a false prophet. I was blessed by John MacArthur until he attacked charismatic manifestations, and then his voice no longer ministered to me. Since those days, I have watched the message of the witnesses change, Armstrong died and his son embraced an understanding with much more truth and the Lord has made me much more tolerant of others as they learn and grow.

Instead of pointing out error and taking a superior attitude (something that is occasionally still a temptation) I find that I can learn something from everyone if I will remain teachable. I also have come to understand that the seed of Christ is in everyman and only needs to be watered with love to grow. If I just agree with that truth, it is amazing how much more positive and effective the conversation becomes. I look forward to the visits from the witnesses...not to confront but to share truth about Jesus and whether they believe that He is a son of God or the son of God doesn't matter. I have another friend from Iraq...not only a muslim but also a 32nd degree mason and we have had some excellent discussions. A few years ago that would not have been possible. Two years ago I went to a concert in Scottsdale, AZ at Christmas time at the Mormon tabernacle. It was wonderful and I can talk about Jesus without becoming mired in the book of Mormon. (I rather suspect that if I give it a chance that I would find that Joseph Smith had some pretty good ideas.)

The bottom line is that it took some time to embrace the doctrine of ultimate reconciliation but I found that it did not damage my faith but only made the love of God greater. Once the verses start to resonate in your spirit that "where sin abounds grace doth the more"; "Mankind was subjected to futility, not willingly but because of him who subjected it in hope"; "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess"; "by one man's sin death entered into the world and by one man's sacrifice all are made righteous"; etc. In the process, there was no one outside of the love or plan of God and they were all just on the way to learning that they were lost so that they might be found. The son of perdition that needed to be revealed is being exposed in the heart of those that are convicted when they receive a love that they don't deserve...it is like heaping coals of fire upon their foreheads (they know that they are not doing right) and we began that course when the love and mercy of Jesus became real to our own heart.

If we are willing (and obedient to the law of love) I believe that we will not only eat the fat of the land, but we will discover the wisdom that comes from above that is pure and easy to be entreated. Many will come for advice and prayer because they will be drawn as a moth to the flame. The more that I think on things that are pure and lovely and of a good report, the more that my heart becomes filled with Him and His love, the more I make the right choices...in other words I become righteous because His righteousness abounds. In the process I hear something in my spirit..."Blessed are the pure in heart, for theirs is the kingdom." "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God." And, finally "To the pure, all things are pure."

The more that we see truth (and Christ in each other) the purer our heart becomes. They will know us not by our doctrine, our exegetical ability or our eschatological philosophy, our knowledge of Hebrew or Greek or any other thing. They will know us by our love....Lord, let it be so.

3 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:28 am

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Hibbs wrote:They will know us by our love....Lord, let it be so.

Yes, THIS! And it is this love which is at last making me available to fellowship with those of all faiths. Fear is displaced by love, just as He promises. Jehovah's Witnesses have never posed a challenge for me. I've long enjoyed sharing the love of our Lord with them when they stopped by. I could admire their Bible scholarship, even while I suspected that they had been handed a Bible by their superiors which may contain some less-than-accurate translations from the original text. I always thought they were on the right path, though, especially when that path led them to my door. Pretty arrogant, yes?

I was introduced to Catholocism a couple years ago when a friend that I worked with made a profound impression on me by the way he lived his life so obviously led by the Holy Spirit. Ismael is an elderly gentleman, born in Mexico, and working with me at the time. This man is the gentlest, most loving and giving creature I have ever met. We spent much time at work sharing our faith and one night he asked me, "What do you think about Mary?" I told him that Jesus must have thought pretty highly of His mother when He gave her to John at the cross. To that, Ismael exclaimed, "He gave her to all of us!" I had to concede that point, since our Lord obviously knew that we'd be reading and feeding upon that account in this present age.

I knew how dull of learning I was, and considered that the Catholics might be onto something the way they repeated their lessons as we cycled through the seasons. I attended adult catechism until nearly the end where I would be going through some of their indoctrination rituals. I honestly don't remember what those rituals were, but I do remember receiving the revelation from the Lord that those manifestations of "Mary" that all the catholics (all the way up to the pope) get so excited about were not Mary at all, but rather a spirit that has been around at least as long as Ishtar, who likes to call herself "queen of heaven." Well, this was a deal-breaker for me, and when I informed the deacon that I would be dropping out of class he said that this was a common occurrence, that there are three problems people had with the catholic doctrine: 1) Mary, 2) Mary, and 3) Mary. It was a disappointment to me, I had hope that I could become a part of a solid tradition. But it was not to be: here I was alone again.

But I could love Catholics! And Mormons, too, I discovered when a friend became involved with this church and related an encounter he had with one of the church's "seventies" and gave me goose-bumps telling the story. The point is that I still have strong reservations about the institutions, but those thoughts don't even enter my mind when I am loving up one of their members. Turns out that you can "speak the truth in love" without pointing out perceived errors in doctrine. And what is truth? I can answer Pilate's question with scripture:

Php_4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

So, then, if a thing is noble, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous, and praiseworthy, then it is TRUE!

So now I love a muslim, and we can share for hours without disputing over doctrine. I am content with knowing that there are just some things I do not yet understand. And such a pleasure it is to meet another who is in search of TRUTH. We are indeed brothers in this respect. And now the Lord is bringing others into my sphere of experience and it encourages me to discover how much of our experiences and learnings we share in common with one another. I have been reticent to speak much about Jesus

It can get weird at times, too. While exploring with a new muslim friend living in the U.K., I made the acquaintance of a woman who claims to have knowledge of crop circles and the light orbs which she claims create them. OK, this is new for me, but who am I to judge? I have long been interested in crop circles and more than a little amazed. We shared for a couple days, and it seemed like a good sharing where I was able to share nothing but God's love for all of His creation. Then, all of a sudden she turned on me. She accused me of being Barack Obama and/or someone from the white house or someone working for the CIA, FBI or some other three-letter agency. This took me greatly by surprise. I did a little digging through her facebook profile and some of her posts and find out that she claims to be carrying at least three children of immaculate conception some of which were spiritually conceived from fathers in Iran (the kings of the east?). She says that she is fifteen months pregnant already! She even makes claims of being a queen in the spiritual realm. I think I have encountered this Ishtar/Mary/queen of heaven that I was warned about when I was investigating catholicism! It is interesting that the spirit should have warned her about me, and told her I was a threat, but rather hilarious who she understood me to be! I maintained a loving tone towards her, and actually found myself answering her questioning toward me from scripture as if I were Christ speaking in the first-person. Very strange encounter. I am relieved that it is ended.

How's that for an aside? Yes, Mark, they DO know us by our love! And let it be so more and more every day! I'd love it if my wife and sons caught on, too!

4 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:37 am

Long2JC

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Mark, I have found what you have expressed to be true in my life also. I believe all the above is why it is crucial that each of us has an intimate personal relationship with God. So we can be sensitive to what God’s truth is and what man’s truth is. We are so susceptible to be persuaded by either one. When we have a solid foundation of an intimate relationship with God, we can learn so much from each other.

[/quote]"The more that we see truth (and Christ in each other) the purer our heart becomes. They will know us not by our doctrine, our exegetical ability or our eschatological philosophy, our knowledge of Hebrew or Greek or any other thing. They will know us by our love....Lord, let it be so." Amen.

5 Jesus/Isa/Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:34 am

Hibbs


Now it gets a little more dangerous...sharing some of the paths that we have trod to come to where we are. I was raised in a strong catholic tradition. Mother was from a farm family of 14 and dad had been in the Jesuit seminary until it came time to commit to a vow of celibacy. He left, met and married mom and had eight children. His closest friends to his death remained Jesuit priests from his class at Loyola. 12 years of parochial education gave me an understanding of all of the traditions, a foundation to appreciate God in three persons (or dimensions), a historical perspective on the Bible and some knowledge about God. On occasion I return to the "church" for funerals, weddings and the like and see the symbols and traditions as an outer court exercise. I personally know many catholics (and lutherans as well...who are only reformed catholics...they deleted Mary's position) who are the salt of the earth and demonstrate the law of love written on their hearts. A lot of the worst traditions have gradually been removed...selling indulgences (get out of jail free cards issued by the pope, bishop, cardinal etc. to lessen one's payments of time spent in purgatory...that place between heaven and hell for those that didn't quite measure up...they died having committed venial or mortal sins but not cardinal ones). Its funny but as I think about some of these things that take me down paths that have not been travelled for years, I realize that there were foundational truths hidden along the way...the dimensions of three and types and shadows of the symbolism.

Anyway, dad used to read the New Testament in Greek and I thought that he would be excited when I had my "understanding enlightened" and began to study the Bible in earnest...but sadly, that was not so. Rather than encouraging my studies, he could only criticize for I was not attending catholic mass and I didn't understand the nuances of Greek tenses and voices so my efforts to look into the greek were a virtual waste of time. One of my disappointments has been that dad and I could never discuss the Bible...he was a wonderful man and good father but tradition made the gospel of little effect. He was 91 when he passed two years ago.

Mom, on the other hand, remained loyal to her husband and prayed her rosary to the end of her life. Her heart was awesome and her hunger to hear about God was always strong....unless dad was present. Somehow, her prayers and all of those Hail Marys, as repetitious as they were, came from a heart that knew heaven and heaven knew. I attribute the progress that is in my life in large part to her prayers. Her love for people and her acceptance put something in my life that has only grown stronger as I walk with the Lord.

I had married a Lutheran in a joint service between a Lutheran pastor and Catholic priest, and we had our children baptized as infants. When I gave my life to the Lord and started to see and hear spiritual things, she thought I was slipping. My zeal ended up bringing me into encounters with demons and things that I was ill prepared to understand. I became active in the Lutheran church and was elevated to the board of evangelism and invited into the inner circle of the pastor and the church board. I attended classes for almost a year when I was being challenged regarding baptism in my own life. I attended a class on baptism thinking that it would be a study into Biblical truth on the subject. When I started to ask questions that Luther's Small Catechism could not answer, I was now considered dangerous. When my giving became too much out of character for the tokenism that my wife and I had practiced, all hell literally broke out and the details would take too long to share. When that happened I came to understand that most people do not pray in faith but rather in childlike fear and superstition. I met a little Franciscan monk who knew the Lord and was a blessing in the midst of the storm. I also met the wife of an Episcopalian pastor who was full of wisdom and helped me along the path. Lastly I met a Lutheran lay evangelist and his wife who were full of God. He came with a study of the monarch butterfly and stayed in my home. He told me to read Allen Redpath and his books were one of those quantum leaps in my understanding. God does have angels that we "entertain unaware".

Over the years I have come to realize that God can speak through the most unlikely of subjects and that even some of the most wicked (based upon their outward failures) people can speak truth into your life. I have also come to realize that if I will remain teachable almost every encounter can produce light and life, sometimes through me but very often to me.

I am afraid that as Paul, I speak as a fool, for it is not about us and yet the paths we have trod can speak to others. It would be a simple matter to boast of my infirmities and failures along the way for there have been many. Religious zeal damaged some and offended others and as Saul stoned Christians, I am sure that my words stoned some that needed simple encouragement...I guess you could say the sins of the father and his great intellect were visited upon his son. I cringe when people miss the courses in life that were required to "nail my mind to the cross." I hope that I have become much more patient and understanding along the way.

I need to close and send this post or else I will delete it. I have used the first person "I" much too much and wonder if it is the I of Christ or the I of self that is writing. Hope that this piece of the process is a help to someone, Love in Him.

6 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:19 am

todosan


I think that what turned a corner for me was the day that I discovered what pagan Christianity was.

I had basically spent my life rehearsing what I was told and in most cases, I never really asked God about those staples of my Christian walk. I just took all that at face value. It wasn’t until I was deeply injured by otherwise well meaning people that I began to question how such things could happen in the first place.

I was basically taught to despise other religions, and the more obviously errant ones were a fast track straight to a burning abode in the center of the earth (uh um). This type of thinking makes a person God incarnate… well not really, but we begin to act like it. We usurp the judgment seat, and take on the right to have an opinion of others, no matter how well uninformed we might be. I am poking fun here, mostly at myself.

I was a really good religious style Jesus. More like an actor, really, not fully understanding the depth of the job I was trying to carry out. I was just skimming the surface, pointing out obvious errors, and rebuking those who really had it coming. I think the reason why so few JW’s came to my door was that God was protecting them from me ! Now that’s a thought.

Then I realized a parallel one day. Most of the things I accused other religions of doing, I myself did also. I felt justified because I had a Jesus and they had some “other” Jesus that just looked like my Jesus, but really was not my Jesus. I realized that I did not know my God either, just like they did not know theirs. My understanding was based on what people told me about Him, rather than learning it myself from the Source. Then it all came into view. The part truths that each religion had were likely because they had seen something of Jesus, but not the whole package. In the true Spirit of Adam, they became their own god and filled in the blanks of what they did not understand. When is the last time you heard a pastor say, “I don’t know.”? I bet it has been a very long time in most cases.

So the verse is true of the Jesus on the cross and the Jesus today. His visage was marred more than any man. The real Jesus remains quite obscure, and the deception is that because we are Christian, we have got an inside track on the truth. That leaves about 6 billion people out in the cold…. Or in this case, should I say heat? After all, the Lord has lost all those souls forever, right?

I am trying to be provocative here, if you can’t tell. I began to realize that religions are not well defined discrete buckets of belief. If a man prays to God and says, please lead me into truth. The real Jesus hears and intercepts those prayers. He intervenes, and if that man will continue to seek the truthgiver, he will progress into a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Men do not congregate in silos of righteousness; they are on a progression towards maturity, led of course by none other than the Holy Spirit. At every camping stop, there is a religion. They can remain or move on, but most people remain. Pagan Christianity is a great example. These people have knowledge, but no spirit, and therefore no ability to grow upward in Christ, because it is not by knowledge that we gain the prize. If we truly understood that, no one would remain hanging around Passover.

I am not saying that Islam or Mormonism is an alternate path. There are things that the Lord made very clear for the beginning believer to understand. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. What I see is that the same hidden Jesus that I am trying to find has been lurking around the dark recesses of the Mormon temple, the JW Kingdom hall, the confessional, and Emmaus campout. ….oooo, did I say that? Yep.

There are a lot of people in those places that really want to know the Lord. When they find the person who is the real deal, the One who all these things testify of, their hearts leap for joy that they have found a great pearl. Remember, it is religion that condemns another human being, not God. If Jesus is so willing to accept them all, shouldn’t we be also? I just don’t accept the things that contradict the truths I have already been shown....but even that changes from time to time...



7 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:48 am

LindaY


"I" realize that "I" have used this too much also and understand why John always spoke in the 3rd person when writing. Self was removed and one day this person writing today hopes that it will be continually removed to the point that it's not longer "I" writing anything but, rather more about Christ and God's love for His creation who speaks to that creation in many ways and forms.

Some of what is written here has been being brought to life all around me over the last few years. Being raised in the south, there are many labels that have been placed on man or certain groups of people who are "not like the majority" who have always controlled that way of life. I was in high school when integration began taking place in the school system and what a terrible time it was for those who "dared" to come into that previously "preserved" city with walls so high that had been built up that no one could enter in before. It was awful. My husband and our family, began reaching out to this community of people, attended their fellowships and made many friends in the process. I will never forget the day that one of our closest friends who lived with a "white" family moved in with them because of the abuse she had suffered in her own home. One night they woke up to a cross burning outside on their lawn. Love can cross so many of the "preconceived" ideas that have had such a stronghold in this part of the country. It's not easy living around the multitude that won't allow anything or anyone to enter in (not speaking of communities here but, their hearts, as one of God's creation that He loves), regardless of skin color or religion, etc.

However, it's amazing to watch how God can open the hearts and minds of mankind to tear down those ideas that have always kept us in bondage. Recently, there was a family who bought a store just down from my house. They are from India. It was difficult to break this barrier that was put up by them because of the abuse they had suffered. They had moved into an area that was very apparent they had not been welcomed and as with many of us, we tend to put up walls to keep all others out so that it doesn't hurt so much. For months and months, little bits at the time, I was trying in my own efforts to reach out to her but each time I would go into the store that wall was put up immediately. Slowly it started coming down over time and then when some things happened to someone in my own family that was devastating for us, I had to go into the store to purchase something and she was sitting and reading her sacred book, I don't know what it's called but, it's Hinduism. A neighbor came in and began hugging me over what had just happened and God came up during that time and I just broke down in tears. Immediately, it was as if this woman who was watching, knowing very little English, came from around the counter and began hugging me and all the walls came tumbling down from that day forward. Not only have I learned much from her but, it also spoke to me more than ever of how love can overcome so many obstacles that can't be penetrated any other way. Things were never the same from that day forward and she has recently moved from here and I miss her.

Then, another girl that I know from a town not too far away had just begun a college course and it would break my heart to hear the hatred that would come from the mouths of this particular family, while attending their church religiously each time the doors would open. Their idea of dealing with someone outside of the "white, non Christian" faith was to just be wiped out if they didn't believe or convert over to their particular faith. She went into this course being very leary of what she was going to be facing but, then things changed. She began to experience the love and compassion from this woman she had not expected and they became very close, sharing with each other and this became her favorite professor of all she has had before. The walls are tumbling down. It's a slow process but, at the same time, I see it happening and it's God's doings and it is amazing just to watch it taking place, through no efforts of our own but, His works taking place in this earth.

I know these are just things shared that are experiences but, it goes way beyond that. There are so many more but these particular ones stand out, having recently happened. Walls are put up for many reasons, but God in all His wisdom, is and has been tearing down these walls and removing the veils and opening the doors of hearts to let Him in and bring us out. It transcends all "learned" processes and IS and has always been "spiritual".

Which leads to my next question, what do all of you see as "babylon"? Perhaps I should open up a thread for just that.


8 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:51 am

LindaY


Sorry Todd, I was posting my reply while you were posting yours I guess. I haven't read it yet but, will do so now. Embarassed Smile



Last edited by LindaY on Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : wrong name)

9 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:17 pm

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What an awesome conversation that has taken place here, and The Love coming forth from the heart, for all.

I do believe that this is the way, that we all have come to know and experienced. All things are becoming ONE, in Him.

There is no Greater Power than The Love of God.


http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

10 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:56 pm

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Hibbs wrote:I have used the first person "I" much too much and wonder if it is the I of Christ or the I of self that is writing.

I get the same apprehensions when I write with too many "I's," Mark. I have been known to become self-conscious about it. But does the apprehension, or fear come from ourselves, our accuser, or is it an admonition from the Holy Spirit? Admittedly, it does sound rather impious to speak in this manner. Is it merely tradition which causes the third-person passive voice to sound so much more 'spiritual'? And then John adds this post, which speaks of thedifferences between hebrew thought and greek thought. I haven't studied this out yet, but it is rich indeed! I came, I saw, I heard, I tasted. . . These are activities that we have all experienced and can all relate to!

todosan wrote:My understanding was based on what people told me about Him, rather than learning it myself from the Source. . .I just don’t accept the things that contradict the truths I have already been shown....but even that changes from time to time...

This was the turning point for me! And I think not only for me. This is where it all begins (to use the third-person passive voice). To bounce back to Mark's reservation, don't folks trust us more when we speak from our own experience? To paint with a broad brush can seem rather threatening, especially to someone who holds an alternate paradigm dearly to their heart. They might think to themselves, "He speaks as if this should apply to me, but I really don't see it." I have noticed how this can put people on the defensive, whereas if we speak in terms of "I" there really is no argument. "I" am of no reputation. "I" have often been wrong. "I" have seen the Lord work in my life in many miraculous and exciting ways. "I" want to know Him so much more than I do now. "I" love you. "I" want to learn more about you and your experiences. "I" see the face of God in you.

My, how you have guided me toward truths which have supplanted earlier thoughts, Todd!

LindaY wrote:I know these are just things shared that are experiences but, it goes way beyond that. There are so many more but these particular ones stand out, having recently happened. Walls are put up for many reasons, but God in all His wisdom, is and has been tearing down these walls and removing the veils and opening the doors of hearts to let Him in and bring us out. It transcends all "learned" processes and IS and has always been "spiritual".

Which leads to my next question, what do all of you see as "babylon"? Perhaps I should open up a thread for just that.

This is such an exciting thing that we're witnessing! And yet, it seems as if He is also at this same time separating the goats from the sheep. Do you know that there are those who still hold onto the stubborn position that they want nothing to do with Him? They believe that they have found a better way, and that is to go their own way. Some, I believe, have perceived promises of great personal power if they choose religion which marginalizes the Creator and exalts the creature. God says, "Charge no interest." They say, "What a great way to make money work for us and to enslave people!" God says, "Do not kill." They say, "Abortion is a superb means to make money and to re-engineer demographics to suit us. And how about war? Pharmaceuticals? Poisonous inoculations? Taking control over the food supply? All of these means will serve us superbly as well." These folks are building walls around themselves as quickly as God is tearing them down between ourselves. But yet we are called to love them, too, for they are slated to be reconciled to Him along with all of His creation. These people comprise "mystery babylon." It is the system of commerce, usury, oppressive government, false religion and pseudo-science which seeks to enslave people and bring profit it's self-seeking adherents. Everything that is anti- (or in-place-of-) Christ. It is the system which holds us in bondage, to the extent that we buy into it. Someone on the forum mentioned that it is the power structure which continues to demand we produce bricks for it, while withholding from us the requisite straw. (who was that and why can't I seem to make this search function work?)

Bear in mind that this is all just how "I" see it, Linda. There are others here who have a much better grasp on this subject. I suspect that my self-abuse over the years has damaged some neural pathways, as I definitely lack the intellectual clarity I once had. And yet this was an answer to prayer, too. I knew long ago that my biggest idol was my own mind, and still is, to some extent, but not so much anymore as I have nearly succeeded in destroying it. Very Happy

Do you want to take a gander at something else that "I" see, Linda? I don't know if this comes from the Lord, or from my own desires (which He put in my heart, perhaps?), but it tickles me. "I" find it encouraging so I'll share it with you. Do you remember this passage?

Rev 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, (16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

OK, here it is. The rich men of the earth have built and stocked extensive underground complexes for their own protection and provision when disaster strikes. There is so much "terror" to be found on the web, whether it be from earthquake, super-volcano, solar flare, nuclear disaster, a fly-by from an errant neutron star, unfortuitous planetary alignment, what have you. I don't know what TPT^3B are seeing. Or it could be as Todd mentioned, that they peer through their looking glass and see nothing after a near-future date and that scares the hell out of them. Or perhaps they just feel a need to protect themselves from the civil unrest they anticipate will manifest when they crash the financial system. Bottom line is, these people have controlling spirits, and having an underground fortress affords them a sense of control and self-security. Now, contrast these goats with the sheep of our Shepherd's pasture. We want to control NOTHING. After all, is God not sovereign, wise, loving, powerful, rich and all-knowing, all rolled into One? But most of all, sovereign. No element within His creation is outside of His influence. And He loves us!!! Even while knowing everything about us, He still loves us! And He's also shared with us some pieces of His grand plan to give us confidence in our security and even the same for all of His creation.

So what happens when the scat collides with the turbine? The goats head underground, anticipating a cataclysmic, extinction-level event on the surface. Us sheep are left to our own devices, and "good riddance," think the goats. Surely they are monitoring the surface through their surveillance systems, but what do they witness? That "crash" that they feared would destroy the earth, it has instead set things to rights! The earth no longer wobbles on its axis, and the atmosphere re-fills with moisture as it was before the flood. People are no longer killed by the solar radiation. The overcomers who have fallen asleep are resurrected into their new tabernacles, then those of us who remain at His coming are changed in an instant. They witness everything working wonderfully for those who are living "in the air," even 'harpazo'ing here and there as Jesus wills them to. So now they know! It was all about YHWH and YESHUA all along. How sad that must make them, finally acknowledging from their earthly crypts the One Power That Is. This is when they just want to die, hoping that the rocks crash in on them now. But see, this is also where they finally bend a knee to their Creator, and they may not know it but He has a place for them on the other side of the judgment and it's all good, even for them!

So there you have it, another glimpse into David's mind. I give it to you freely, so take it for what it's worth. Shocked



Last edited by DavidHarreld on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot to mention vaccines: yecch!)

11 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:45 pm

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[quote="DavidHarreld"]
Hibbs wrote:I have used the first person "I" much too much and wonder if it is the I of Christ or the I of self that is writing.

I get the same apprehensions when I write with too many "I's," Mark. I have been known to become self-conscious about it. But does the apprehension, or fear come from ourselves, our accuser, or is it an admonition from the Holy Spirit? Admittedly, it does sound rather impious to speak in this manner. Is it merely tradition which causes the third-person passive voice to sound so much more 'spiritual'? And then John adds this post, which speaks of thedifferences between hebrew thought and greek thought. I haven't studied this out yet, but it is rich indeed! I came, I saw, I heard, I tasted. . . These are activities that we have all experienced and can all relate to!

todosan wrote:My understanding was based on what people told me about Him, rather than learning it myself from the Source. . .I just don’t accept the things that contradict the truths I have already been shown....but even that changes from time to time...

This was the turning point for me! And I think not only for me. This is where it all begins (to use the third-person passive voice). To bounce back to Mark's reservation, don't folks trust us more when we speak from our own experience? To paint with a broad brush can seem rather threatening, especially to someone who holds an alternate paradigm dearly to their heart. They might think to themselves, "He speaks as if this should apply to me, but I really don't see it." I have noticed how this can put people on the defensive, whereas if we speak in terms of "I" there really is no argument. "I" am of no reputation. "I" have often been wrong. "I" have seen the Lord work in my life in many miraculous and exciting ways. "I" want to know Him so much more than I do now. "I" love you. "I" want to learn more about you and your experiences. "I" see the face of God in you.

My, how you have guided me toward truths which have supplanted earlier thoughts, Todd!

LindaY wrote:I know these are just things shared that are experiences but, it goes way beyond that. There are so many more but these particular ones stand out, having recently happened. Walls are put up for many reasons, but God in all His wisdom, is and has been tearing down these walls and removing the veils and opening the doors of hearts to let Him in and bring us out. It transcends all "learned" processes and IS and has always been "spiritual".

Which leads to my next question, what do all of you see as "babylon"? Perhaps I should open up a thread for just that.

This is such an exciting thing that we're witnessing! And yet, it seems as if He is also at this same time separating the goats from the sheep. Do you know that there are those who still hold onto the stubborn position that they want nothing to do with Him? They believe that they have found a better way, and that is to go their own way. Some, I believe, have perceived promises of great personal power if they choose religion which marginalizes the Creator and exalts the creature. God says, "Charge no interest." They say, "What a great way to make money work for us and to enslave people!" God says, "Do not kill." They say, "Abortion is a superb means to make money and to re-engineer demographics to suit us. And how about war? Pharmaceuticals? Poisonous inoculations? Taking control over the food supply? All of these means will serve us superbly as well." These folks are building walls around themselves as quickly as God is tearing them down between ourselves. But yet we are called to love them, too, for they are slated to be reconciled to Him along with all of His creation. These people comprise "mystery babylon." It is the system of commerce, usury, oppressive government, false religion and pseudo-science which seeks to enslave people and bring profit it's self-seeking adherents. Everything that is anti- (or in-place-of-) Christ. It is the system which holds us in bondage, to the extent that we buy into it. Someone on the forum mentioned that it is the power structure which continues to demand we produce bricks for it, while withholding from us the requisite straw. (who was that and why can't I seem to make this search function work?)

Bear in mind that this is all just how "I" see it, Linda. There are others here who have a much better grasp on this subject. I suspect that my self-abuse over the years has damaged some neural pathways, as I definitely lack the intellectual clarity I once had. And yet this was an answer to prayer, too. I knew long ago that my biggest idol was my own mind, and still is, to some extent, but not so much anymore as I have nearly succeeded in destroying it. Very Happy

Do you want to take a gander at something else that "I" see, Linda? I don't know if this comes from the Lord, or from my own desires (which He put in my heart, perhaps?), but it tickles me. "I" find it encouraging so I'll share it with you. Do you remember this passage?

Rev 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, (16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Hi David, I think I found what you may have been looking for it started with this post I think.
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com/t3-the-end-beginning-of-all-things#40


http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

12 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:54 pm

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Scherryl wrote:Hi David, I think I found what you may have been looking for it started with this post I think.
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com/t3-the-end-beginning-of-all-things#40

Hibbs wrote:In Egypt we are all busy making brick and the time is come when our taskmasters in the world are telling us to fulfill our quota without straw. Whatever man builds (brick) will ultimately fall. Stones are made by God and Jesus is the chief cornerstone. It is the Lord that is building this Jerusalem and we are living stones, being fashioned according to the pattern that God ordained from the beginning.

It was Mark, of course! Thank you, Scherryl! How did you find this, btw? Are you able to use the search function, and did I just do something imprecise like search for "bricks" instead of "brick"?

13 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:12 pm

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DavidHarreld wrote:
Scherryl wrote:Hi David, I think I found what you may have been looking for it started with this post I think.
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com/t3-the-end-beginning-of-all-things#40

Hibbs wrote:In Egypt we are all busy making brick and the time is come when our taskmasters in the world are telling us to fulfill our quota without straw. Whatever man builds (brick) will ultimately fall. Stones are made by God and Jesus is the chief cornerstone. It is the Lord that is building this Jerusalem and we are living stones, being fashioned according to the pattern that God ordained from the beginning.

It was Mark, of course! Thank you, Scherryl! How did you find this, btw? Are you able to use the search function, and did I just do something imprecise like search for "bricks" instead of "brick"?


No, like you I can't seem to get anywhere with it either, it may be do to the kind of simplicity of this forum. I don't know I've been checking into it.

http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

14 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:47 pm

LindaY


Much of what is typed here I don't understand. I hope my brick making days are long gone. I don't know what other religions believe and could spend years studying and never know. I know what having no love or emotions are though because they have been stifled while trying to make bricks and I don't ever want to go there again. To me, that's hell. There are many things that I'm thankful for that had been taken for granted many times in life. If I don't understand much of anything, I want to love with the same love that Jesus loved us. I fall short of this so much all the time but, it is something that has grown inside of me that I don't want to lose.

15 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:39 am

klm4jc


Hibbs wrote:
Over the years I too studied some of the "cults" so that I could address their error and "try to win some." I once subscribed to Plain Truth magazine and enjoyed Herbert W. Armstrong only to feel betrayed over some of his teaching.

I didn't just subscribe to this mag, I joined the church!!! Talk about upsetting my mom. We were raised Lutheran, Wisconsin Synod. We always had to make sure everyone new that because we were better than the other Lutherans. Twisted Evil As I got older I just saw the hypocrisy of it all, it didn't seem like anyone was actually living the way they were 'believing'. So I set out on a journey of in life to find out what I believed. I actually heard Armstrong's radio program on my way from Denali park to Fairbanks, meaning the middle of no where, with my wife while serving in the Army. It was the only thing that came on the radio in that frozen wilderness. I always saw that as providential. It was also a rebellious period in life for me (I think I too have ruptured some neural connectors). So, when I heard this man blasting the majority of organized religion and it's hypocrisy, it caught my attention. Then a few years later, when I had kids, it was time to teach them right from wrong. I refused to sit in the pews of my ancestors and mumble the recited words. I joined the "WWCG". It was an interesting time. Learned more about the tabernacle, holy days and law in 5 years than I had in a life time. I actually loved the passion of these people. Sang from the heart, believed in God and put there money where their mouths were. I actually turned down a promotion because it would have required me to work on the Sabbath. I probably identified more with the Jews than with Christians. Quit doing all those pagan holidays and learned of the real Holy Days and participated in the High Sabbaths including a week long Feast of Tabernacles. I must say, I really enjoyed it. It was however difficult to keep all the rules straight. Want to talk about legalism? Let's make a list of what you can do or can't do. Oh wait, someone did that already. At least my legalism was overt though.

Anyway, after Armstrong died, the Holy Spirit got a hold of the leadership and they started to focus on Jesus, love and gifts of the Spirit versus the Sabbath. We had an ex-pentacostal with us and she started speaking in tongues and all that. We were like kids exploring the great outdoors. The spirit was moving us and we were excited. A little too much for those having a tough time dealing with the changes. Seems that the church wanted to be more evangelical than charismatic. So, it was best that we leave. We were causing division and that was not right.

Long and short of it, it was during that time that I commented to others how blown away I was that God was willing to change the whole worldwide church of God just to keep me from being deceived. I saw Him for the first time as being very big and truly sovereign. He showed me he would leave the 99 for the 1. It rocked my world. It was from that point on that I knew God was much more able to lead me into all truth than the devil was able to deceive me. I began to measure God big and in faith knew that He would mete it back to me in the same measure.

It's been a wonderful journey. I have met so many along the way with the same passion and zeal for God and His truth. I appreciate all of your individual experiences and willingness to share them. It gives great encouragement and confirmation. It's like hearing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb.

Peace,
Kevin

16 Jesus/Isa/Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:00 am

Hibbs


For me one of the greatest changes was actually coming to appreciate the sovereignty of God. I was never one to believe much in conspiracy stuff or look behind the apparent things of history. It is probably a good thing that I did not, for if I had, I might have developed a bitterness that would have been difficult to overcome. I see it today in some of the people that are consumed by the affairs of the world, the Illuminati, committee of 300, skull and bones, etc. etc. They tend to be the same ones that build bunkers and store ammunition, thinking that all of life is a great war and they need to prepare. In the church they are quick to talk about what the devil is doing, never realizing that he is just a junkyard dog and that his chain only goes so far...all the way back to Adam...but the other end is held in check by a loving God and His Christ.

Conceptually the sovereignty of God seems impossible. If He is sovereign then why so much evil in the world? Why is there disease and mosquitoes? Why did that child have that brain tumor? What about free will? ...And yet, behind it all stands a loving Father who is at work to establish a people in His image who will understand His love and what happens when we depart from that love. I would not have appreciated light had I not experienced the dark. Hot without cold would not have as much meaning. Good without evil lacks contrast...and so on. When we ascend with John into the realm of God, we find that there is a peace and order to it all and that there is no confusion in heaven...the third heaven if you will.

God in His infinite patience and love purposed in His own heart to create a people for His pleasure...sons...who will understand and communicate with Him freely out of the heart instead of compulsion. Not a dictator, He purposed to establish a kingdom of love rather than lust and has been working to perfect that which He has begun. We have been given a choice, true, but we have also come to realize that we did not get to stage the options. God sets before us a choice and has rigged the game so that we will ultimately look under the right shell and find the truth. The outcome was a foregone conclusion....we came from Him and will return back into Him. The difference is that we will have been changed by the process. Once we gain an understanding of His love and His great power toward us, trust and rest develop and we can fall back into His loving arms, ceasing from our own labors and seeing from the vantage of the eagle. No longer flapping our wings to fly, we find the lifts and currents of the spirit and soar into a realm where we see things that turkeys and chickens (pecking on the ground) can never visualize. We begin to see that He that knew the end from the beginning sat down on the seventh day and said that it was very good.

It is not that we become passive in life. It is that life becomes active in us. Through the knowledge of the truth, we are set free from deception and fear and lack. Having walked with the four lepers out of the besieged city, we have found that the thunders of heaven have pushed back all of our attackers and there is an abundance that we must needs tell others about. We become the trumpet of God and sound the song of victory to those that are perishing in the battle. This is the mission of the sons of God and it is in places like this forum that we are learning to harmonize and become a heavenly symphony that the whole world longs to hear. Glory to God!

17 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:14 am

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Mark, I fear I may be more lost than I realized, for I have no bunker!

18 Jesus/Isa/Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:46 am

Hibbs


Jericho was a bunkered city with walls so thick that chariots could ride three abreast...there goes that pattern again...body, soul and spirit. For those that want to build a walled city of theology, financial protection or any other worldly provision apart from God, their walls are already cracking and preparing to fall down flat. When we realize how lost we are in Adam, a suddenly of God brings us into the place of being found in Him. Once He got into the boat with the disciples...lost in a storm where they thought they would perish..."immediately the boat was on the other side." We have all spent nights fishing and caught nothing but as soon as we toss our net on the other side fish almost jump into the boat.

It really is neat to "lose our mind" and associate with like-minded (or is that mindless) individuals, with like, precious faith. We have come to appreciate the testing of our faith for it is the testing and tribulation that establishes that faith in us...even though the rebuke sometimes comes: "Oh ye of little faith" or again: "Have ye no faith?". We need not build bunkers or gather ammunition...in fact, we are busy hammering our swords into plowshares. Having come through trying to use Saul's armor to slay our giants, we have realized that the battle is the Lord's and that the weapons of our warfare are powerful to the pulling down of the bunkers of fear, hate, greed, distrust, etc. Loving our enemy and being vulnerable just doesn't seem to our mind to be the way to proceed...but we know that love cannot fail so what else do we need?

19 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:20 pm

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Hibbs wrote:Jericho was a bunkered city with walls so thick that chariots could ride three abreast...there goes that pattern again...body, soul and spirit. For those that want to build a walled city of theology, financial protection or any other worldly provision apart from God, their walls are already cracking and preparing to fall down flat. When we realize how lost we are in Adam, a suddenly of God brings us into the place of being found in Him. Once He got into the boat with the disciples...lost in a storm where they thought they would perish..."immediately the boat was on the other side." We have all spent nights fishing and caught nothing but as soon as we toss our net on the other side fish almost jump into the boat.

It really is neat to "lose our mind" and associate with like-minded (or is that mindless) individuals, with like, precious faith. We have come to appreciate the testing of our faith for it is the testing and tribulation that establishes that faith in us...even though the rebuke sometimes comes: "Oh ye of little faith" or again: "Have ye no faith?". We need not build bunkers or gather ammunition...in fact, we are busy hammering our swords into plowshares. Having come through trying to use Saul's armor to slay our giants, we have realized that the battle is the Lord's and that the weapons of our warfare are powerful to the pulling down of the bunkers of fear, hate, greed, distrust, etc. Loving our enemy and being vulnerable just doesn't seem to our mind to be the way to proceed...but we know that love cannot fail so what else do we need?

Agreed!

I heard someone on this forum earlier mention the effects of heaping coals of fire on the head of our enemy, and wondered if they understood the effects.

Rom 12:20 Therefore "IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM; IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP COALS OF FIRE ON HIS HEAD."

Taken in the context of the time it was written, this passage carries an entirely different meaning than what we naturally perceive. Back in the day, fire was essential to our survival. It heated our home and cooked our bread and meat. If our fire went out, we had to find more: our very lives depended upon it! So we would go to our neighbor's house and ask them to share their fire with us. And how did we carry these coals back to our own home? In a basket on our head! So when we speak of heaping coals of fire onto our enemies heads, we speak of giving them life, rather than the torment that we might imagine we are bringing to them.

20 Jesus/Isa/Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:50 pm

Hibbs


Having come to appreciate that perspective, I have realized how doing good to someone that has done me wrong brings conviction to their heart like nothing else can accomplish. It is easy to rebuke or become angry and flip off someone that is behaving poorly. It is much more powerful, however, to bless that one that has done you wrong. Heaping fire had a twofold meaning and when we don't have the benefit of the historical Hebrew context we miss part of what is being said. When we place it in the context of Jesus giving his life when we were yet enemies so as to bring us back into covenant as joint heirs with him, it makes a lot more sense. Thank you David.

21 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:28 pm

klm4jc


Hibbs wrote:. We need not build bunkers or gather ammunition...?

Have you ever seen Todd's back room?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation....must....repent....)

22 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:38 pm

todosan


You mean the man cave? Only men are allowed there...I suppose you are going to tell them the secret code and handshake too....

23 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:12 pm

todosan


Hibbs wrote:For me one of the greatest changes was actually coming to appreciate the sovereignty of God. I was never one to believe much in conspiracy stuff or look behind the apparent things of history. It is probably a good thing that I did not, for if I had, I might have developed a bitterness that would have been difficult to overcome. I see it today in some of the people that are consumed by the affairs of the world, the Illuminati, committee of 300, skull and bones, etc. etc. They tend to be the same ones that build bunkers and store ammunition, thinking that all of life is a great war and they need to prepare. In the church they are quick to talk about what the devil is doing, never realizing that he is just a junkyard dog and that his chain only goes so far...all the way back to Adam...but the other end is held in check by a loving God and His Christ.

This was a super key statement for what is happening in our time. My friend called me last night and was troubled by a terrible event that happened this weekend. I hope I don't offend anyone by sharing this....so there is your early warning to stop reading now.

My friend Mike was driving through Whittier Iowa and he saw this man running about in the yard, looking in the ditch and all over the place. Their eyes met and Mike could tell something was terribly wrong. Later on, he found out that this was the family who lost their toddler in the swimming pool that morning. Mike has been really having trouble dealing with this because of how he felt when he saw the man, and considering the grief this family has is just unbearable.

We talked about this for a while and I shared our mind of Christ dialog with him. In the natural, there are things that are beyond our ability to deal with or cope with. However, in Christ, there is an understanding or a viewpoint that is way beyond the limitations of the natural mind.

If we understand where heaven is, then we also know that if we had the mind of Christ we would be able to access or touch those things that are otherwise unseen, but very close to us. The circumstance no longer dictates our reality, to quote Mark, and the Truth of the Spirit becomes our baseline. We see things as they really are, rather than what we perceive them to be through the dead nature of Adam.

There is hardly any consolation for a mind that has been so assaulted in the natural, but in Christ there is redemption, reconciliation, and understanding. The revelation of God's sovereignty has opened a door for us that allows us to see all things pertaining to the course laid before us. Not in a fatalistic sense, but as in a destination. I told David, "God will take you the easiest way you will go." This has been true for my life so many times, the latest of which has been a doozy. I was not willing to go the easy way and thus a sovereign process sets in so that the good work in me could be completed on time. That is destiny.

Mike and I talked about what the impact would be to this man if he could see more of the spiritual realm. If he could understand that his child was now standing with the Lord. Not in an imaginary sense, but in the sense of truly knowing what is fact - revelation if you will. That is reality. Yes, the pain of loss would still be great, and there would still be mourning, but the state of that person's mind would be altered by the impact of the Spirit. When we do not see God's sovereignty, we are inclined to decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. That is the tree of knowledge. When we do understand Who is King, then we eat from the tree of life, which not even death can prevail against.

24 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:57 pm

cross-eyed

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The eternal question "why do bad things happen to good people?" used to be one of those that you'd just shrug your shoulders and be silently empty of any consolation. Others would throw out "it rains on the just and the unjust" . . . but losing your toddler to a watery end is not just rain . . .it's not just having a bad day. It's enough to ruin marriages, break up families and even lose your own sanity. But I do think there is a key as to the "why" question.

And like other conversations lately, it goes back to Genesis. For me, there is a very good reason why God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge. I also see the two trees as two gateways . . .thresholds into two realms . . .spiritual being the tree of life and natural being the tree of knowledge. But when Adam received from his Eve the fruit of the tree he was supposed to avoid, everything that he had dominion over became subserviant to the realm in which he chose.

Why do bad things happen to good people? Because that's the law of nature in the realm we now live in due to Adam's choices. Death is the nature of this realm. The miracle is that we can have life while passing through this realm of death. Will it bring the little baby back? Unless there's a miraculous intervention, no, the baby's life has run it's course. And for the record, it doesn't help to tell people that the lost one is in a better place. That's not really what they're needing to hear. There "is" a place and a time for everything . . . and that includes mourning.

I've known people that blame God for things that went wrong. I've told a few of them . .. don't be mad at God. He didn't cause this. kind of like what happen back on 9/11. At the time, I agreed with the religious mouth-pieces that were taking advantage of the situation and shaking a finger at U.S. and telling them it's their own fault this tragedy happened. If they didn't take God out of the court system and schools and whatnot, things like this wouldn't happen. I adamantly disagree.

What we "do" has no bearing on God's judgment or redemption. law may work that way, but not grace. The reason things like that happen is because there are people in this world that have given themselves over to themselves and the outcome is always destruction of other people. Even if it means it'll cost them their own lives. Carnality doesn't care that the very being it uses to destroy other beings, also destroys it's self.

My "self" isn't interested in life. It's only interested in comfort. Problem is, true comfort can only be found in life. The natural comfort is a counterfeit of what true comfort is all about. We have the comforter within us. It's not about making our "self" comfortable. It's about ministering to others, lifting up others, encouraging others . . .the more comfort flows out, the more we become imbedded in it ourselves.

I forgot what the original question was . . . affraid

25 Re: Jesus / Isa / Yeshua on Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:37 pm

LindaY


cross-eyed wrote:The eternal question "why do bad things happen to good people?" used to be one of those that you'd just shrug your shoulders and be silently empty of any consolation. Others would throw out "it rains on the just and the unjust" . . . but losing your toddler to a watery end is not just rain . . .it's not just having a bad day. It's enough to ruin marriages, break up families and even lose your own sanity. But I do think there is a key as to the "why" question.

And like other conversations lately, it goes back to Genesis. For me, there is a very good reason why God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge. I also see the two trees as two gateways . . .thresholds into two realms . . .spiritual being the tree of life and natural being the tree of knowledge. But when Adam received from his Eve the fruit of the tree he was supposed to avoid, everything that he had dominion over became subserviant to the realm in which he chose.

Why do bad things happen to good people? Because that's the law of nature in the realm we now live in due to Adam's choices. Death is the nature of this realm. The miracle is that we can have life while passing through this realm of death. Will it bring the little baby back? Unless there's a miraculous intervention, no, the baby's life has run it's course. And for the record, it doesn't help to tell people that the lost one is in a better place. That's not really what they're needing to hear. There "is" a place and a time for everything . . . and that includes mourning.

I've known people that blame God for things that went wrong. I've told a few of them . .. don't be mad at God. He didn't cause this. kind of like what happen back on 9/11. At the time, I agreed with the religious mouth-pieces that were taking advantage of the situation and shaking a finger at U.S. and telling them it's their own fault this tragedy happened. If they didn't take God out of the court system and schools and whatnot, things like this wouldn't happen. I adamantly disagree.

What we "do" has no bearing on God's judgment or redemption. law may work that way, but not grace. The reason things like that happen is because there are people in this world that have given themselves over to themselves and the outcome is always destruction of other people. Even if it means it'll cost them their own lives. Carnality doesn't care that the very being it uses to destroy other beings, also destroys it's self.

My "self" isn't interested in life. It's only interested in comfort. Problem is, true comfort can only be found in life. The natural comfort is a counterfeit of what true comfort is all about. We have the comforter within us. It's not about making our "self" comfortable. It's about ministering to others, lifting up others, encouraging others . . .the more comfort flows out, the more we become imbedded in it ourselves.

I forgot what the original question was . . . affraid

Hi Nathan,

It's so interesting that you bring this up. It was something that had just been discussed recently in an email with someone. A few weeks ago, I began reading Ecclesiastes again, which, the name itself seems to speak volumes (I thought ecclesia was a Greek word). It had always been such a depressing book to read for me in the past but then, knowing Solomon had been given all wisdom and in the end He speaks of it all returning to God. I noticed in this book they had "no comforter". They (Jerusalem) had given up their comforter in Lamentations. On the cross, Jesus gave up the ghost. When Christ was resurrected, He told the disciples that He was sending them the comforter "again" and to wait for it. It was interesting that He stated He was sending it "again". And you all know the rest of the story. I had never seen that before.



Last edited by LindaY on Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:10 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : error in posting)

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