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Tape Five

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1 Tape Five on Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:44 am

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Proceeding Word
Simply means we should be in a place where we’re already prepared to receive the Word in the next piece or procession. A place where we don’t always have to be brought up to speed or where we have to always take extra time to become in a receptive mood. The proceeding word is one that builds as a continuance of a thought that was previously established. Thus the mind needs to be ready for a word “proceeding”. Not one that needs to continually cover the same ground again and again.

Chapters 2 and 3 were not covered in-depth on purpose. It’s not the intention to uncover “every” stone. But again, looking for keys that uncover patterns that reveal the understanding behind the symbols that Revelation is so saturated with.

Spiritual Language
1Corinthians 2
10 But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. 11 No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12 And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13 When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.*

It’s all Spiritual
Revelation actually, all of Scripture, was not written in a worldly understanding, but in a spiritual one. It can only be understood by applying spiritual patterns. “We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.” When we understand the patterns given by the Spirit, we can then apply those patterns to “any” situation coming from God. Be it visions, dreams, or revelation. The pattern was set by God, the visions, dreams, and Revelation also come from God.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t teach us man’s wisdom, but he teaches us a language that comes from the Spirit of God. The first century church understood it well. So we need to remember to apply the book of Revelation to the times when it was written. When it happened, where it happened, to who it happened to. Pieces that are primary to seeing God’s whole picture come together. Like a detective, it’s important to use a keen eye and understand through the process of evaluating all the components. Otherwise, you can come to inaccurate conclusions. If we don’t leave the contents of the message in the context it came in, it becomes “sound-bites” Pretext, preconceived ideas before reading what the text says.

Editor’s note:

6th Day Gathering
Granted much of this sounds repetitive. But bear in mind, the majority of the church has established opinions that are not accurate. So much has to be torn down so that much can be rebuilt. Here’s the thing. . . we’ve spent the last century building our doctrines and philosophies on what other men have studied and concluded from countless centuries before them. The problem isn’t that we’re spiritually deaf and have missed God, it’s just that our information, our insights have been incomplete. They’ve gathered images from their limited, darkly tinted glasses and concluded that it can’t get any lighter than that. What’s changed isn’t the fullness of truth, it’s the season of the harvest. It’s the culmination of time combined with the hunger of men’s hearts for a truth that can not be formed by the lips of men, but only through the light of the rising sun.

Look at it this way, the closer you get to dawn, the more of the sun’s light illuminates your surroundings and the shadows of darkness retreat. We are entering into the dawn of the millennial reign of Christ, not the traditional millennial reign that our religious teachers have so adamantly claimed, it’s not an established amount of time, but it’s a dimension as well as a person. Light is connected to understanding and wisdom. The closer we get to the rising of the sun, the more we are able to see with it’s rays of light.
End of Note
FOUNDATIONAL KEYS OF SCRIPTURE

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount

Shadows of Tradition
This is something that is so crucial to the understanding of spiritual matters. Up to now, we’ve built our beliefs and philosophies based on shadows. Based on traditions of men, based on the laws of Levi. But just as we saw John in Revelation 1, where he had to “turn” in order to “see”. We have to do the exact same thing. Turn from what? Sin? No, if we have the faith, our sin is removed. We’re not to go back and ask Christ to come into our hearts again.

But it’s our beliefs that defines who we are in Christ. The structure in our minds that “makes us righteous”. The ideas that the laws in Scripture are for us to follow. The laws there are for the structure of the old religious system that was in place then. Not for what Christ was building, that’s why there was such a clash with Christ and the religious Pharisees which represented the church then and now.

Luke 16
15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Message v. 16
God's Law and the Prophets climaxed in John; Now it's all kingdom of God—the glad news and compelling invitation to every man and woman

The Fact that John had to turn to see the voice behind him is not to say he was going in the wrong direction, but that it was simply time to change directions. Had John not turned around, he would not have been able to see the voice which is to say he would not receive the revelation. Even though I may have come off in the beginning to sound like where we came from is wrong, the truth is, where we had been going isn’t wrong from where we’re going now, it’s simply time to turn in a different direction. It’s when the church ignores the voice and stubbornly won’t turn, is where it becomes wrong.

Hard to Leave the Ruts
The traditionalists of our day feel too unstable to let go of their ancestral doctrines to allow the Spirit to lead them in the kingdom direction and their charismatic faith can sometimes be disarming. Most people of that branch of doctrine experience much more freedom than the mainline evangelical churches, yet even they can have inadvertently established man made laws in which it’s assumed the members must follow. But Jesus fulfilled all of those laws. Those laws were not the substance, they were the shadow. The tabernacle of Moses was not the permanent standard for all men. It was the pattern until the original came in. Hebrews 8 explains it all in detail. I would copy the verse and put it here, but to get the full understanding, I’m adding the whole chapter because it’s so complete.

Hbr 8:1
Now the main point in what has been said {is this:} we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, Hbr 8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. Hbr 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this {high priest} also have something to offer. Hbr 8:4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; Hbr 8:5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned {by God} when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN." Hbr 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. Hbr 8:7 For if that first {covenant} had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

Shadow Chaser’s Frustration
Interesting thing about chasing shadows, no matter how hard you try, you’ll never catch and contain it. It was the same with the laws of Moses. No matter how hard we try, no matter how “good” we are, we can never achieve perfection through attempting to follow the law. Two reasons, one, if you break one law, the Bible says you’re guilty of breaking all of them. You slip up just once, you’re doomed to judgement and as we know, it’s impossible to follow every law without failing somewhere because we are an imperfect flesh. The second reason is because the only way you can please God is through faith, not through works of obedience to the law. Law removes the options for faith.

Hbr 8:8
For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; Hbr 8:9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. Hbr 8:10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. Hbr 8:11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'

10This new plan I'm making with Israel isn't going to be written on paper, isn't going to be chiseled in stone; This time I'm writing out the plan in them, carving it on the lining of their hearts. I'll be their God, they'll be my people. 11They won't go to school to learn about me, or buy a book called God in Five Easy Lessons. They'll all get to know me firsthand, the little and the big, the small and the great. 12They'll get to know me by being kindly forgiven, with the slate of their sins forever wiped clean.
Hebrews 8:10-12 Message translation

The Struggle of “Rut” Mentality
I think many Christians struggle with this because we’ve taught ourselves that we have the liberty to knock door-to-door and tell people about Christ. And even with our other brothers and sisters in Christ that aren’t as “mature” as we are. Teach them about the “ways of the Lord”. But that’s based on the shadow. The substance says, “When I am lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” The law has moved from the letter of the written word to the heart of the “grace-covered” believer. It’s transformed from law to seed. From something you are forced to follow to something that’s simply planted.

for all will know me, from the least to the greatest of them. hbr 8:12 "for i will be merciful to their iniquities, and i will remember their sins no more." Hbr 8:13 When He said, "A new {covenant,}" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear

This last verse is really the new revelation God is bringing to the church. Whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old . . . he’s speaking of the Old Covenant and everything it stands for. But we just nod our heads and half-heartedly agree without fully understanding the depths that really affects to the religious system. He was not just speaking about a change of options from a life of law to a life of grace and freedom. He was speaking about a literal removal of the old system. When Jerusalem was destroyed by the hands of the Roman soldiers, the entire religious system was destroyed along with it. Never to be restored again because it’s been replaced by the New Covenant. Christ replaced the shadow with his substance, once and for all time.

End of Note


REVELATION 4
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

The Timing of Things
It’s interesting as well as a bit confusing as to why John is not shown the glory of this heavenly dimension before now. It isn’t until after the seven churches were addressed that the scene changed and went to what seems to be a deeper revelation of the throne. But again, if we see Ezekiel, we’ll see this is God’s pattern. When God brought his judgment on Israel, it didn’t start with it’s king or capital, it started with it’s temple. God’s pattern is always to handle his children before he does anything else.

This is the same message Jesus had with the Sidonian woman in Matthew 15:21 and on, talks about. Jesus didn’t come for the world or the Gentiles, he came for the Jews first. Because the Jews were direct descendants of Jesus but more importantly, they were God’s chosen people, which is actually “why” they’re descendants of Christ. But the point is, God deals with his children first, then he moves to his next agenda item. His message to the seven churches is just following pattern . . . as usual.

What’s in a Throne?
When we think of a throne, often in our minds we see a large, extravagant chair with plush velvet arm-rests and golden legs with carvings all througout and a tall back that is much higher than the one sitting in it. With servants and people literally waiting to be given orders by the king to be immediately carried out to the simplest whim. But again, try to read this with spiritual eyes and let Scripture define the understanding for you.

Psalms 22:3
But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

Inhabitest . . .King James is a tough translation even in English at times. That word means “to sit”, or to “dwell”. In other words, our praises become God’s throne, a place where he comes and rests. When we worship we create a spiritual “throne-room” for God’s presence to come and inhabit. His throne isn’t there because he’s sitting from being tired. That is a picture that has meaning. Throne speaks of judgement.

Judgment Isn’t Always a Bad Thing.
However, “judgement” isn’t a word we should recoil from. We often think of judgement as wrath, anger, even death. But that’s just one dimension of it. Judgement should be something we want in our life. We need God to destroy things in us that would destroy our relationship with him. To see the throne of God means he’s coming to do kingdom business.

Numbers of two
The ark is in two pieces. I believe that is even symbolizing something. I believe God has planted all through out the tabernacle as well as other pictures of Christ, the two covenants. I believe that is also what the significance is with a “two-edged sword”. The old covenant is replaced, or as with the ark, covered by the New Covenant. The lower half of the ark contains three items. Stone tablets of the 10 commandments, again, two tablets; which I believe they represent the Old Covenant of law. Then there’s Aaron’s staff, which I believe represents the New Covenant which is life, thus the reason for the budding of a dead stick. And lastly, the manna, which is the bread of life.

God’s Personality in the Ark
These three things are the Characteristics of God. Law, Life, and daily bread. They are all covered by the mercy seat, the second half of the ark. When Hebrews 10:19 mentions we can come in boldness to the throne of grace to receive mercy, that’s referring to this same piece of furniture in the holy of holies, the mercy seat.

Mercy Seat
Why is it called a mercy “seat”? Why isn’t called a throne? In Exodus 25:22 God said “I will speak to you from the mercy seat.” Aaron, the High priest was to never sit on this seat because man in the flesh, his work is never finished. When one sits down, it’s because the work is finished. Jesus is “seated” at the right hand of God because he has finished the work. He “is” the finished work. Many people feel they understand this yet the also feel they have to work up their holiness and they haven’t fully experienced the rest of God in their lives. We’ve convinced ourselves that those that don’t work, don’t eat, which is Scripturely true, but we end there.

Working to Rest
The rest of that is, the work you need to focus on, is to find that place of rest, once you’ve entered that, then, you don’t work, you rest. All that God has needed to do for us is already done. Jesus himself said it best from the cross. “It is finished!” His judgement is not to bring condemnation on us, it’s settled already in heaven. Every word is settled in heaven, but they haven’t been completely unveiled yet in the flesh. The finished work of Christ has not yet been a revelation to many of us. “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.”

What is one of the most important things man works for today? The perfect job is one that doesn’t just give you a weekly paycheck, it’s one that establishes a nest-egg for you so that when you quit, you have plenty of funds to spend the rest of your life in retirement. You work so you’ll have the ability to rest. It’s the same thing spiritually. Our work is to simply get into that place of rest so once we’re their, spiritually, we can retire.

This isn’t to mean we can sit back and rely on others to wait on us and spiritually feed us. This does mean, however, that the need for ministry, for filling the church, convincing the church which way is right, the activity to get everyone involved in worship . .on and on, these activities will automatically take place because the bride has elevated Jesus and fulfilled the prophetic word that he spoke, “When I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” That place of rest is already available to us, we just need to understand how to enter into it.

10This new plan I'm making with Israel isn't going to be written on paper, isn't going to be chiseled in stone; This time I'm writing out the plan in them, carving it on the lining of their hearts. I'll be their God, they'll be my people. 11They won't go to school to learn about me, or buy a book called God in Five Easy Lessons. They'll all get to know me firsthand, the little and the big, the small and the great. 12They'll get to know me by being kindly forgiven, with the slate of their sins forever wiped clean.Hebrews 8:10-12

“He was seated on the throne” God showed to John this picture because he wanted John to see and know the finished work of Christ. In a time of persecution so great that in the flesh it would appear that the enemy of darkness might just be able to blot out the New Covenant church of Christ, in the Spirit, John was being shown something totally different. The battle is not lost, it’s already over and the victor is already sitting down!

Revelation 4:4
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald

Jasper Stone
On the breastplate of the High Priest there were 12 precious stones. One for each tribe of Israel. Jasper was for the tribe of Ruben. Ruben is the first born son of the 12 sons of Jacob. To the first born was given the double portion of inheritance. Jesus is the first-born of all things created (Colossians 1:15) even the first born from the dead. (Colossians 1:18) So when John was seeing the image of Jasper, the reader understood it that John was seeing Christ in his glorified state.

Editor’s note
I know there was also significance to the sardine or sardus stone, but he didn’t elaborate on that one and I can’t find how he was able to connect Jasper to Rueben. Scripture states there were 12 stones representing the 12 tribes, but it doesn’t line them up as to which stone represents what tribe. At least I haven’t found in Scripture where that is.
End Note

Rainbow
When doing word studies or any kind of study in Scripture, a key to unlocking meaning is also experienced by using several simple laws of understanding. One of which is called, the law of first mention. Pretty self-explanitory. When we see something mentioned in Scripture, to find out the significance of it, we simply go to where it was first introduced into Scripture. For the rainbow, that would mean we go back to the days of Noah to where it was first created. Why is there a rainbow around God’s entire throne? The rainbow was a symbol of promise that destruction would never happen again through the flood. God wants us to see as he has rested from all of his work so we also can rest from ours which allows us to set with him in heavenly places Eph. 2:1. But this wasn’t your typical rainbow, this one was all emerald, or green.

Promise of Rest
The idea of God or Christ resting isn’t something that’s going to happen, it’s already happened. It has happened historically, but not experientially with many of us yet. That’s not God’s fault. We need to get the veils off our minds. If we can see the revelational door was open for John, we need to also know that door is still open. Jesus is the door. John knew the story of Noah, the rainbow was given as a covenant promising God would never destroy the earth again by flood. Noah is a picture of how you and I get out of an old world dominated by thorns and thistles of sin and into a new world of righteousness.

The Correlation Between Christ and Noah’s Ark
We’re not getting a physical ark, but a spiritual ark. Noah found grace in the eyes of God. God gave Noah a revelation to build an ark. “3” stories high, why do you suppose it was 3? The 3rd story had one window that didn’t look out, it looked up. Only one door. It carried 8 souls, number of new beginning. Flood of God came to destroy flesh, Noah never left the planet, God purged the planet of sin but he was left here. This speaks to those that believe we are going to be Raptured up so God can again, destroy the earth. It’s not his pattern. He’s not going to remove the Godly and leave the ungodly, you don’t pull up the plants and leave the weeds.

No Rapture?
There are 3 different arks mentioned through out all of Scripture. All represent Christ. Noah’s ark, Moses ark, and the ark of the covenant. God is trying to get us in the ark inside of Christ so deeply that we see he’s not going to remove us but he’s going to lift us up above all the judgement that’s occurring on the earth, but we’re not leaving. God’s going to carry us through the judgement, not out of it.

Jhn 16:32
Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world

Pitch
Sometimes I wonder how we missed stuff like this. We’re so busy telling everyone that the day is coming when the sky will fall. According to Jesus, it’s already happened and we are still seeing tribulation all over the world. He also said “I will rain upon the just and the unjust. The only difference between us and the world is that we are to be spiritually inside a tongue and groove gopher wood vessel that was “pitched within, and without”. Pitch there is the same Hebrew word for atonement. It was sealed on the inside and sealed on the outside so that the waters of judgement couldn’t seep in and kill Noah and his family because he found grace in the eyes of God.

Gen 6:14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Whenever there is a family in the earth that finds grace in the eyes of God, he’s not only going to seal us within, but he’s going to seal us without. So that whenever the rains of judgement begin to fall upon this planet we’ll just rise above it. He’s not going to take us out but he’s going to lift us up and show this world he’s a glorious church! Noah let two birds loose out of that ark. Raven was the first that is an unclean bird. It eats rotting flesh. It never returned. The reason it didn’t come back is because it flew all the way through the Bible and it ends up in the book of Revelation where it says Babylon is the hold of every foul and unclean spirit and the cage of every unclean bird.

Vivid Picture of Babylon and the Church
Babylon speaks of the stinking stench of traditional religion and legalism of men devouring each other with their blood dripped teeth, but the blood is not redemptional blood, it’s the blood of blind religious gluttons that eat their own young. Now, granted this is a rather explicit picture, but you must remember, religion seethes with pride and it’s not a pretty picture. But the truth is, even that unclean bird, the raven, found it’s way to a prophet and brought him meat for a time. This again is speaking of the fact that all of these places that got us to where we are now were necessary. But, just like Elijah, the church needs to realize that God doesn’t always speak with direct instructions as to when to go and when to stay, that comes through recognition by relationship.

Gopher Wood
What God is trying to show is through these passages is that he is bringing us out of the old world and into the new world. 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Notice also in that verse in Genesis that the wood Noah is to make the ark from is Gopher wood. All the articles in the tabernacle are made with acacia wood, which means thorny. But here, it’s gopher wood, which means “to house”. The ark is where God built Noah a house of protection. The same thing he told David when David had the idea to build a house for God, God’s response was, I’m going to build a house for you” We are all temples of the Holy Ghost, a house where God’s spirit lives.

The Number seven
A rainbow has seven colors. Just like there are 7 covenants in Scripture. A rainbow has those 7 levels just like the 7 different covenants. There are 7 different pieces of furniture in the tabernacle if you take the ark and the mercy seat and count them together, there are 7 spirits before God’s throne, there are 7 churches. There are 7 eyes, there are seven flames in the candlestick, all of these represent different levels of completion and understanding. The rainbow is insight like an emerald.

Emerald is Green – Are We Really “Twisting” Truth?
On the high priest, the emerald stone is the stone that represented the tribe of Judah. Judah means “praise” the tribe that praises the Lord and it’s also the tribe the Jesus derived from. To those that may feel we are taking Scriptures and twisting them to say what we want them to, this is a reminder that these things are coming from what is called hermeneutics, which simply means Biblical principals of interpretation. We’re going back and taking the law of first mention, and the law of progressive mention, and seeing how Scripture unfolds when these patterns are applied. The Bible will speak for itself, it doesn’t need the carnal wisdom and the reasoning of man.

Understanding How Dimensions Work
So when we go back and find where and emerald is or a Jasper stone, and just follow it all the way through Scripture and understanding of the meaning of that symbol will then unfold. So when God show s us a rainbow, he’s trying to speak to us out of covenant. The rainbow is a three sided thing that has to be seen or captured through a prism, much like a spiritual dimension. Understanding that God reveals everything through three dimensions.

Cross of Revelation
The tabernacle is God’s grandfather clause for all of Scripture. It’s the prism through which the dimensions of him are revealed. God gives us all of these things as patterns and keys that open understanding to spiritual truth, the nutrients for spiritual growth. The wall surrounding the tabernacle was 8 (Number of new beginnings) feet tall with only one entrance. You couldn’t crawl through it, you couldn’t climb over it, there was only one way to enter and that was through the door. Jesus said the same thing in John 10 about many trying to enter in by coming through another way.

There were 7 pieces of furniture. A brazen altar, brazen laver, table of shewbread, golden lampstand, altar of incense, and the two pieces making up the altar. When you take all of these pieces and look at the order of the way they’re set up from an overhead point of view and take a pencil and draw a line from the ark to the brazen altar, then draw another line from the golden lampstand to the table of shewbread, it forms a cross. All truth is revealed to us through the cross.

Understanding “Skull” hill.
Are we talking about what happened to Jesus on the cross 2000 years ago? Yes, in part, we are never to forget the price that was paid for our redemption for the death we deserved but the mercy that was given so in the end, we can have eternal life with him, but there’s more to it than that even. For us to understand the spiritual principals that are being opened up to us now, there are dimensions of the cross that we need to experience. Not just as it relates to the forgiveness of your sin, but to let there be a death in your mind. It was not by coincidence that when Jesus was crucified, it wasn’t just on a random hill, but a hill called “skull” (Greek for Golgatha which is the literal name of where Christ was crucified John 19:17).

The hill literally had three caves in it, below where he was hung on the cross. It had two caves side-by-side and a third lower down giving the appearance of a skull. The death that comes to us is the death of our carnal mind so that we can receive spiritual understanding of the cross and revelation.

Whenever Israel was traveling through the wilderness and came to a stop, the tribes were stationed on each side of the ark. Three to the north, south, east, west. From an aerial point of view, this shows a cross within a cross. Just as the tabernacle formed a cross within the cross formed by the tribes encamped about it, forming a cross within a cross, the Word of God is a book within a book, a revealtion within a revelation, a cross within a cross.

Rev 4:4
And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Significance of 24
Again we see seats and elders sitting. Another sign that the work is completed, the work of the church is completed . .but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Why 24? Is that just a random number? No. To understand this meaning, we need to go back in Scripture and try to find where there is a similar setting of 24. 1 Chronicles speaks of 24 singers that sing in the tabernacle of Moses.

Editor’s Note
I found this really interesting. The number 24 is mentioned in Scripture 32 times and just scanning through the verses, it became really interesting how so many things are connected. He mentions 1 Chronicles, chapter 27 actually, in this passage, every month there would be a “changing of the guard” so to speak. The tribe of Levy was the only tribe allowed to enter in the tabernacle and engage in the priestly functions. They divided the tribe in to 12 groups with a captain over each group. Each of the 12 groups comprised a number of 24,000 men. I threw in a couple other things pertaining to 24.

Num 25:9
And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

2Sa 21:20
And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of [great] stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.

A little more overview of the numbers and assignments
1Ch 23:2 And he gathered together all the leaders of Israel with the priests and the Levites. 1Ch 23:3 The Levites were numbered from thirty years old and upward, and their number by census of men was 38,000. 1Ch 23:4 Of these, 24,000 were to oversee the work of the house of the LORD; and 6,000 {were} officers and judges, 1Ch 23:5 and 4,000 {were} gatekeepers, and 4,000 {were} praising the LORD with the instruments which David made for giving praise. 1Ch 23:6 David divided them into divisions according to the sons of Levi: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari

End of Note

Kings and Priests, Again
In the setting of having 24 singers and 24 priests in the tabernacle of Moses, keeping in mind in verse 6 of Revelation 1 it states we all have been made kings and priests which is the key to unlocking the understanding, this is a “king-priest” ministry. They are seated in thrones showing they are kings, they are also elders showing they are not just people off the street but they have wisdom as well as authority.

New Jerusalem, 12x12
One of the obvious break-downs of the number 24 is that it’s 12 + 12, which is another picture later in Revelation when it gives the dimensions of the city of New Jerusalem. Not some gold paved city being lowered out of the clouds, but it’s actually the bride of Christ. When Jesus gave the beatitudes in Matthew 5:14 he says we are a city set on a hill. Not only can we see a New Jerusalem we “are a New Jerusalem . .why a New one? Because the Old Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. and hasn’t been rebuilt as far as the religious system is concerned. There is a Jerusalem today obviously, but they rejected the substance and chose to remain with the shadow. And today you can state truthfully that Jerusalem now, is just a shadow of what it once was. But the substance of that shadow is going to have a New Jerusalem that He will marry. The New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ

Galatians 3
24 Now these two women serve as an illustration of God's two covenants. Hagar, the slave-wife, represents Mount Sinai where people first became enslaved to the law. 25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery. 26 But Sarah, the free woman, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. And she is our mother.

Who are the elders? There are 24 of them, there are 12 foundations and 12 gates that we’ll also see later in Revelation. The foundations are given names, they are the names of the 12 Apostles and the 12 gates are given the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, there’s your 24 elders.

Seated on thrones
Are they the only ones that get thrones? When we get to heaven, do we also get thrones or is it only to those that are in very prominent positions and that’s part of the reward given to them. To answer these questions would be stepping out of the spirit because we forget, this was written by the spirit in spirit language so we need to maintain that thought as we come to the understanding of it all. 24 elders, 12 tribes of Israel (Old covenant church) plus the 12 apostles (New Covenant church) over all, they are “representing” the church in it’s entirety. When we see the elders worshiping, sitting, praising, we are to understand they represent the whole body of the bride. That’s what a “covenant” relationship is, one represents all who follow and are a part of.

They are dressed in white clothes and crowns on their heads
Again, in Revelation 1:6 says “He ‘hath’ (past tense) made you kings and priests unto our God, his father.” This is something that’s already done. What John is seeing is past tense, he’s seeing the church through the eyes of Jesus. Jesus sees me as a king, he sees me as a priest. I’m in a robe of pure white to show my redemption as I put on the priestly robes and I have a crown to show I am honored with royalty in his sight We’re no longer wearing the grave clothes of Lazarus, but we are wearing robes of eternal life. This isn’t something that is going to happen and we’re all waiting to die to receive it, it’s something that’s already happened because someone has already died so that we would have the ability to receive it!

White robes of linen is what the priests wore when they went into the holy of holies. We are in the intimate most parts of the heart of God. Scripture says to cast aside the spirit of heaviness and put on the garment of praise. This is the picture John is seeing. The church is still waiting for it’s crown and robes of white we pull out of our songbooks and traditions when in reality we’re already there if we’d just turn from the shadow of law and to the substance of life and see ourselves the way Christ sees us. God given me spiritual 20/20 vision!

How Does God See Me?
When I come before God he doesn’t see me the way I see me, because of the blood that Jesus gave that I received, it changed everything. God doesn’t see me as a sinner or a failure, or even as flesh, but instead he sees me as a king. He sees me as a high priest, he sees me as a redeemed slave bought by the blood of the son that he sent to pay the price for me to have a relationship with him. He sees me through the same blood (which is a dimension of Christ) that I’m to see others around me. We’re to become “cross-eyed” in all that we say and do

Chasing Carnal Crowns?
We shouldn’t be interested in wearing literal white robes and golden crowns on our heads. We aren’t to be concerned with wearing some purple robe with stripes on it declaring how good I was on the earth when our focus really should be no different in heaven as it is on earth. We should be more concerned about wearing the glory of God on every part of our life, here and there. The Bible says when “he” shall appear, we shall be “like him”. The truth is, he as appeared and we are like him now!

I’m not looking for Jesus to come and Rapture me out of this earth and take me into unimaginable comfort. I’m looking for a Jesus to come and reveal who he is so that when I see who he is I will then know who I am. It won’t matter if I’m in a robe and crowned in jewels, but it will matter that I’m clothed in righteousness and dressed in Jesus. When we start seeing this writing with the eyes of the author, we can’t help but see a master piece of Jesus radiating in his glory before us, through us, in us, if we can just get over the hurdle of our carnality.

Never Quite There, Looking for Life in the Tomb
Several times in Scripture we see where the heavenly angels are questioning the disciples of Christ for their efforts at finding Jesus. One is at the empty grave when the angels asked “why seek ye the living among the dead?” And again when Christ ascended up into the clouds and they were left continuing to stare . . .to the point where the angels again appeared to them and asked why are they still staring at the clouds. One of the biggest problems the church has had since it’s conception is to maintain it’s progress with the Spirit.

Often times the spirit moves or changes course and the church doesn’t. Why? Because we’re conditioned to building foundations that are permanent when they should be mobile. We’re making declarations of beliefs built on shadows and we’re calling the shadows, pillars of Rock. Granted, Jesus “is” the rock, but he is a rock that leads, not in yesterday’s glory, but his is a glory that is new every morning.

Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God

Lightnings, thunderings and voices
Where in Scripture have we heard of this before? At Mount Sinai with Moses. What is connected with Mt. Sinai and Moses? The giving of the law. It’s where Moses first met God through the burning bush, then years later, it’s the same place where he led the people through the wilderness while being called to the top of the mountain to receive the law from God. It’s also where the prophet Elijah wound up when he was ready to give up and die. It was here that God re-established who he was in Elijah and sent him back to finish his ministry and father Elisha so that he could carry on the mantle of anointing that was originally given to Elisha, but that’s another book.

The Human Side of Elijah
When Elijah was on that mountain, completely absorbed into his own little world. Elijah, a great and awesome prophet of God that had just watched fire streak from heaven in front of 400 false prophets, who gave themselves over to spiritual whoredom. Elijah, a great man of God that had just controlled all of Israel through the calling out of a famine for 3 ½ years. This same man that like John the Baptist, also had a regular diet of the very thing that caused the entire nation of Israel to die in the wilderness the fear of grasshopper mentality. Here he is, all alone on this desolate mountain, feeling sorry for himself to the point that he literally became emotionally unstable. God, in his endless mercy, took this great man and taught him a lesson, Elijah style.

A mighty wind, tornado; a great fire, an awesome earthquake. God brought these symbols before Elijah as a reminder that these things are God’s tools and they are God’s language with which he speaks to us, but he is not in them. We’re not to get caught up in the acts of healing, of power, of the ministries that we’ve been given authority to exercise. Lest we too forget the truth from which they all come. The same voice Elijah heard, is the voice that caused John to turn.

1 KINGS 19
9When he got there, he crawled into a cave and went to sleep.
Then the word of GOD came to him: "So Elijah, what are you doing here?"
10"I've been working my heart out for the GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies," said Elijah. "The people of Israel have abandoned your covenant, destroyed the places of worship, and murdered your prophets. I'm the only one left, and now they're trying to kill me." 11Then he was told, "Go, stand on the mountain at attention before GOD. GOD will pass by." A hurricane wind ripped through the mountains and shattered the rocks before GOD, but GOD wasn't to be found in the wind; after the wind an earthquake, but GOD wasn't in the earthquake; 12and after the earthquake fire, but GOD wasn't in the fire; and after the fire a gentle and quiet whisper. 13When Elijah heard the quiet voice, he muffled his face with his great cloak, went to the mouth of the cave, and stood there. A quiet voice asked, "So Elijah, now tell me, what are you doing here?" 14Elijah said it again, "I've been working my heart out for GOD, the GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies, because the people of Israel have abandoned your covenant, destroyed your places of worship, and murdered your prophets. I'm the only one left, and now they're trying to kill me."


15GOD said, "Go back (Turn Around) the way you came through the desert to Damascus. When you get there anoint Hazael; (I Saw a voice) make him king over Aram16Then anoint Jehu (I Recognize What I See, I believe) son of Nimshi; make him king over Israel. Finally, anoint Elisha (Jesus Is Lord, I confess)son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17Anyone who escapes death by Hazael will be killed by Jehu; and anyone who escapes death by Jehu will be killed by Elisha. 18Meanwhile, I'm preserving for myself seven thousand souls: the knees that haven't bowed to the god Baal, the mouths that haven't kissed his image."


Editor’s Note
I just realized something here, the name “Hazael” which means “I saw a voice”, that’s the exact same thing we see in the beginning of the book of Revelation. John “turned” and “saw a voice” behind him. Fascinating!!!!
End Note

Back to the Main Topic
When there was a great display on Mount Sinai of thunder and lightning, the flashes of lightning are showing what takes place when we’ve become surrounded by God’s presence This is a pattern throughout Scripture, there is always a display of lightning and thundering. The light of God so bright, so powerful and so specific and immediate. In all of the vastness of the immense forests, when lightning strikes, it strikes only one tree. There are some of us that need some trees of religion, or carnal understanding in the forests of our lives to be struck by the light of God.

When Lightning Strikes
It is scientifically proven that an object that stands out above all other objects around it, the one that stands out the most is the most likely to be the one struck by lightning. A tree on a hill is more likely to be struck than a tree in a valley. Pride is a tree on a hill. Pride puffs us up, it swells up our logic and chokes off the door of truth. Pride is the foundational flooring of individualism. God wants a blending, not a separation. If there’s individualism in a church, God will remove it with his truth and light.

Placing Lightning’s Blame
Often times, an entire forest is consumed by the fire that originated from a lightning bolt striking a single tree. The amount of rain and the direction as well as the strength of the wind play a huge part in the effectiveness of the firefighter’s attempts at containing the blaze. The carnality in us blames the lightning, but the truth is, if the individual tree wasn’t standing out in a crowd so much, lightning would have had to find another place to discharge it’s power. This is the same in the body of Christ. There are times people are singled out because they are creating either dissention or distraction in the church and often times, they put the blame on the one addressing them rather than realizing it was they that created the situation by becoming a bit of a lump in the otherwise, smooth pudding.

So, as we look at the chain-links that connect everything together, we see that the lightning, thundering and voices are connected to how no man can keep the laws given by God because it was on Mount Sinai when we see the law introduced and the presence of lightning and thundering appear at the same time. But the one who is in the midst of the throne fulfilled them all. Another thing the lightning speaks of is in the passage where Jesus stated that he saw a flash of lightning from the east to the west, and as the lightning shineth from the east unto the west, so shall the coming be of the Son of man.


Lightning[/b
]We’ve taken that to mean he’s speaking about the Rapture happening in the blink of an eye. That one day we’re going to be walking outside and all of the sudden lightning is going to appear all over the sky. But again, spiritually seeing what is being said changes that perception. Lightning speaks of revelation, it speaks of judgement. God is “striking” things in my life that need to be removed. I’m not the one removing them, but because I have a spirit that is willing to allow him to change me, he is the one doing the striking and all I feel is liberation, not pain or discomfort.

That’s the amazing thing about lightning, it can pick out one tree in an entire forest and kill it without damaging another one. This unimaginable power can literally reach through miles of wind, rain and clouds and completely destroy something that has taken years and generations to grow, to the point where it will never recover. That’s the kind of lightning before the throne of God.

We “want” God to come to us with his purifying power and in a flash remove the cancer from so deep with in us that we could never remove on our own. Yet with one bolt of his glorious strength, he destroys the bondage so effectively that we are never the same afterwards because he not only took the tree, but he destroyed the roots that were embedded in us. A tree that’s struck by lightning often is ripped from top to bottom, just like the veil in the temple when Jesus gave his last breath.

[b]Thundering

It always speaks of God revealing mysteries. John 12 talks about a voice heard from heaven concerning Jesus, some said they thought it was thunder, but Jesus said it was the voice of God. Many in church now when they hear the mysteries of God being unfolded before them will go home confused because all they got out of the message was a bunch of thunder. But those that have pierced ears (spiritually of course) will be able to recognize not only is that “thunder” the voice of the Lord, but they’ll also understand the mysteries being preached as well.

Revelation 4:6
And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Defining the Beasts
The picture given here looks to be something out of a horror picture show. But once we get over the thunder, we’ll see the mystery. For one, if you compare the word “beasts” here with the same word in chapter 13, you’ll find there are two totally different words. King James doesn’t do well in it’s attempt to translate Greek to English while revealing the picture John was trying to explain. Most other translations use the word “creature” which isn’t much better, really.

It’s not some hideous, distorted animal. That’s why we know it’s not the same as it is in chapter 13 where it’s explaining a demonic creature yet using the same word “beast” and that’s not the case here at all. I do like New Living Translations choice of words on this passage where it calls it a “living being”. This is much closer to understanding this is not some scary wild thing looking to slaughter saints and sinners alike.

Full of eyes
Does this mean that we are actually talking about a being that literally has eyes all over it? Because we’re also going to see there’s a lamb that’s been slain with 7 eyes that’s standing upright. Interesting that when God made man he said “let us make him after our own image.” And now it would appear that we aren’t replicas of God after all. Yet we again are trying to assume these as literal beings instead of symbolic. It’s a symbol.

The same goes for the sea of glass . .actually, this isn’t the first place where this is seen either, Ezekiel saw this same picture and he called the sea of glass “terrible” which is another “terrible” attempt by the translators in explaining what was being seen. Both the words “sea” and “terrible” mean the same thing; grossly large, or awesomely huge, vast. It was so big that it took up both horizons practically. See, what John is seeing isn’t scary, but it filled him with such awe that it’s overwhelming for anyone to be in the middle of. Remember, this book is being written to a persecuted church that’s being lifted above the atrocities around them with the message it contains.

“Write down the things you see that are, which were, and shall be here-after. The reason why we have got a distorted picture of Revelation is because we’ve been looking at it through one dimension. We haven’t been “full of eyes.” We haven’t had full, or mature, or complete vision. These beings John is writing about are seeing the whole picture.

The book is like a hologram.
What’s a hologram? It’s a bunch of markings that when you look “at” them, they look like a bunch of markings. But they are dimensional. There are pictures within the markings that don’t stand out until you look “in” the hologram. Once you look deeply into the hologram, then the images begin to come out of it. Revelation is the same way, you can’t look “at” what’s being described, you have to look “in” to what’s being described.

The beasts had eyes “before and behind”. If you can’t understand what came before, you won’t be able to understand what comes after. If you can’t understand what Jesus did, how can you expect to understand what he’s going to do? These things are all connected to the mind of religion. This is the pattern that’s beginning to show through all of the traditions of men that we’ve had our minds veiled to. From the very first verse we began by understanding through the condition of my heart, that’s what dictates how much my heart will be reconditioned. The heart of a bond-servant, any other heart will only be hardened to the revealing of the purity of who Christ is. History is, His story.

Romans 8
28- And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Or
28 And we know that God causes everything to work together* for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters.


God knew us before we knew anything. My life is hid with Christ in God and I understand that he is eternal. God wants us to understand what came before us, as well as what comes after us so we can understand where we are right now.

Rev 4:7
And the first beast [was] like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle. Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

The four Characteristics of Christ
Ezekiel saw similar beings in his vision also but that happened hundreds of years earlier. Each being symbolized something. Actually, a lion is the king of the wild animals, the calf or ox is the king of domestic animals, the eagle is king of winged animals, and the face of a man, is king of all earthly dominion. Everyone of these beasts are the king of their dimension. Keep in mind also, heaven was made before the earth. These beings existed before the animals were created so what we see in front of us when we see an ox or lion or whatnot, we are seeing shadows of heaven.

Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Living Creatures Correlating with the Gospels
Isaiah 6 repeats this exact same language, John is at the same place in dimension where Isaiah was. Also when looking a the four beings, they line up with the style or directions of the 4 gospels of Matthew, who portrays Christ as the “lion of Judah”. Mark, who looks at Christ as the sacrificial lamb. Luke reveals the humanity of Jesus as the face of a man, but John, the fourth of the gospels is the one that looks at Jesus as a flying eagle. Through revelational understanding John saw Jesus as an eagle flying through the midst of the throne. John reveals Christ as a resurrected Lord.

2 Re: Tape Five on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:33 pm

LindaY


May the Lord bless you Nathan. This is what I've been waiting for, for so long. It's caused me to obtain an understanding of so much that I had not seen before. It has truly humbled me and at the same time set me free from so much misunderstanding that I have been living in. I don't know much more to say than that right now.

3 Re: Tape Five on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:43 pm

cross-eyed

avatar
These are the streams that transformed me from embracing the old, into living in the new . . . it still resonates in me even as I merely reformat what's already written . . . I do love it!!!

4 Re: Tape Five on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:53 pm

LindaY


cross-eyed wrote:These are the streams that transformed me from embracing the old, into living in the new . . . it still resonates in me even as I merely reformat what's already written . . . I do love it!!!

They are streams! And, I understand what you're saying. Somehow and somewhere along the line I had managed to be sucked back into law in the last few years and it's been showing on the outside. I never want to go back there again. Scherryl had mentioned that the other day and it had happened to her once. It hit a spot in me that caused me to realize what had been happening. Sometimes we can't see how much of Babylon has affected our lives until we come out but then we have to be freed from all of the false teaching that has been ingrained. After our eyes are opened, even though it's a humbling experience, at the same time, it brings so much freedom.

Christ is truly not divided. He is bringing His body into One.

5 Re: Tape Five on Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:07 pm

LindaY


Chapters 2 and 3 were not covered in-depth on purpose. It’s not the intention to uncover “every” stone. But again, looking for keys that uncover patterns that reveal the understanding behind the symbols that Revelation is so saturated with.

I hope you will be able to share those chapters one day. There was something there that I had been waiting for before making any comments but, in His time, it will be. What's here has been a blessing. Smile

6 Re: Tape Five on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:36 pm

cross-eyed

avatar
The second time we went through it in our Bible study, I did do a verse-by-verse, but I didn't go by any notes other than the text.

There is one thing that I found somewhat frustrating and that's when people put a "tag" on what you're trying to share. One of which is "dispensationalism". And "universalist".

I do beleive there is somewhat of an alignment in both of those that I find myself in, but I've never catered to throw my entire identity in with any "one" of them. You ever hear of a guy named "Rob Bell"? One of my favorite all time videos is one that he did. It's called "Everything is spiritual". It's all over the internet by now, I highly recommend that you check it out if you haven't already.

But he's written several books, the latest stirred up all kinds of flack all over the religious spectrum. It's called "Love Wins". It doesn't make any "in your face" claims against the evangelical beliefs, but it does strongly "imply" that hell isn't what everyone thinks that it is. And that was enough to get all kinds of condemnation from those who've given themselves over to the religious system of our day.

At the time I first experienced his stuff, I was pretty active on Tentmaker which is as pro-universalism as Fox news is to conservatism. And much of the talk on the forum was about how great it was to have a guy like this on "their" side. But in some of his interviews, they would ask him directly if he was a universalist and he would always respond with a "no".

People will always try to "peg" us. Once they think they've got you identified, then they also think they have the upper hand on the subject. It's really a form of control is all it is.

but the reason I say all of this is because there may "appear" to be parts of our/my message that have the resemblence of dispensationalism, but that's not our/my identity at all. When people break down the 7 letters to the 7 churches by segmenting one church to one measure of time, and another to another measure and so on, it will automatically be given the "dispensationalism" stamp.

As a dimensionalist . . .the only "ist" that I agree to be identified with . . .I acknowledge the fact that the original letter was not first intended for a specific time frame for the world, but I first accept it at face value, it was literally written to a literal church for that literal time. But that's not the emphasis of the message. To me . . .it all goes "inward". In me, there are 7 dimensional churches . . .

It's like anything else in Scripture. It's all fine and good if someone wants to apply it to a current event or time frame, but then what? Is there spiritual growth from applying a written word to a natural timeframe? Where do we get our sustenance from? The natural? Or the spiritual?

This whole study of Revelation for me, has once again placed the authority back in the spiritual throne where I believe, it belongs. Taking a spiritual truth and applying it to a natural realm or timeframe confuses me more than it feeds me because for one, I've yet to see one spiritual truth accurately applied to "this" generation. I've seen where it's "possible" that it "may" fit . . .but there's been nothing that's been absolutely, hands down spot on for me.

It's like finding Noah's ark . . .okay, say they've found it . .then what? Are they going to believe now that they've seen? Or . . .like the parable that Jesus gave with the rich man and Lazaurs when the rich man wanted to send someone back to tell his brothers the gospel . . .the response was, everyone has the same message given to them. It's up to them to believe it. Seeing a dead guy coming back to tell them another message from what they believe may shock them for a time, but it won't transform them. Proof isn't the thing we're to embrace . . .faith is.

Not sure if I'm clarifying much here or just rambling. scratch

7 Re: Tape Five on Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:01 pm

LindaY


cross-eyed wrote:The second time we went through it in our Bible study, I did do a verse-by-verse, but I didn't go by any notes other than the text.

There is one thing that I found somewhat frustrating and that's when people put a "tag" on what you're trying to share. One of which is "dispensationalism". And "universalist".

I do beleive there is somewhat of an alignment in both of those that I find myself in, but I've never catered to throw my entire identity in with any "one" of them. You ever hear of a guy named "Rob Bell"? One of my favorite all time videos is one that he did. It's called "Everything is spiritual". It's all over the internet by now, I highly recommend that you check it out if you haven't already.

But he's written several books, the latest stirred up all kinds of flack all over the religious spectrum. It's called "Love Wins". It doesn't make any "in your face" claims against the evangelical beliefs, but it does strongly "imply" that hell isn't what everyone thinks that it is. And that was enough to get all kinds of condemnation from those who've given themselves over to the religious system of our day.

At the time I first experienced his stuff, I was pretty active on Tentmaker which is as pro-universalism as Fox news is to conservatism. And much of the talk on the forum was about how great it was to have a guy like this on "their" side. But in some of his interviews, they would ask him directly if he was a universalist and he would always respond with a "no".

People will always try to "peg" us. Once they think they've got you identified, then they also think they have the upper hand on the subject. It's really a form of control is all it is.

but the reason I say all of this is because there may "appear" to be parts of our/my message that have the resemblence of dispensationalism, but that's not our/my identity at all. When people break down the 7 letters to the 7 churches by segmenting one church to one measure of time, and another to another measure and so on, it will automatically be given the "dispensationalism" stamp.

As a dimensionalist . . .the only "ist" that I agree to be identified with . . .I acknowledge the fact that the original letter was not first intended for a specific time frame for the world, but I first accept it at face value, it was literally written to a literal church for that literal time. But that's not the emphasis of the message. To me . . .it all goes "inward". In me, there are 7 dimensional churches . . .

It's like anything else in Scripture. It's all fine and good if someone wants to apply it to a current event or time frame, but then what? Is there spiritual growth from applying a written word to a natural timeframe? Where do we get our sustenance from? The natural? Or the spiritual?

This whole study of Revelation for me, has once again placed the authority back in the spiritual throne where I believe, it belongs. Taking a spiritual truth and applying it to a natural realm or timeframe confuses me more than it feeds me because for one, I've yet to see one spiritual truth accurately applied to "this" generation. I've seen where it's "possible" that it "may" fit . . .but there's been nothing that's been absolutely, hands down spot on for me.

It's like finding Noah's ark . . .okay, say they've found it . .then what? Are they going to believe now that they've seen? Or . . .like the parable that Jesus gave with the rich man and Lazaurs when the rich man wanted to send someone back to tell his brothers the gospel . . .the response was, everyone has the same message given to them. It's up to them to believe it. Seeing a dead guy coming back to tell them another message from what they believe may shock them for a time, but it won't transform them. Proof isn't the thing we're to embrace . . .faith is.

Not sure if I'm clarifying much here or just rambling. scratch

Hi Nathan,

Yes, I have seen Rob Bell's videos that you mentioned and was immensely blessed by them. I don't know what he's been labeled as but, I am not familiar with the labels myself. New terms and labels are continuously popping up all over and I try not to pay attention to them but rather let His Spirit guide me in whatever He wants me to know at any given time. I hope that I haven't suggested that something be labeled. The reason I made the comment was because there was something that I thought was going along the lines of what was posted in other threads about John turning to see the voice. But, I wanted to wait and see what was waiting in the "7 complete church" part before commenting. It's ok though. I understand what you're saying and it will become clear for me soon if what I was seeing was truth. If not, then, it won't go anywhere. What you've written has been a blessing! Smile

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