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Recent Face Book conversation about hell with those who have eyes but can't see.

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My brother elected to begin a conversation that took me by surprise due to the fact that he and I had gotten into another conversation 3 or 4 weeks ago on this very thing on his face book page and he took it to private message because he didn't want his friends . .. many of which were people he made acquaintance with in his ministry of visiting churches all over the U.S. and teaching the leadership how to council people with marital issues . . .he's getting quiet a reputation in that arena.  So just last week, he opens his face book up with this invitation to share what we think about hell . . .I kinda took advantage of the opportunity . . the rest is pretty much self explanatory.

Matt Wrote::    
Heaven, hell? What do you believe? Do you even care?
We live in a time where Truth Debates are not 'politically' correct. Many Christians are neutralized. Silent. Gray. Confused. Weak. Scared.
This is a great article on 'Satan's 10 Commandments'.
Post your thoughts. (be nice)
This is off a link he then posted . . .apparently laying the foundation of what he supports or believes to be true.

"You can be a Christian. Just don't invest any time building a relationship with Christ."
"Don't bother to search the Bible.  It doesn't apply today."
"What you believe is unimportant.
"Twist the Bible meaning to say anything you want it to say. Don't study too deeply and prove your point by quoting just half of a single verse."
"God's ten commandment law has been done away with.  It does not matter what you do, heaven is your future home

(He expounds on each point but I haven’t been copying those because  . .. well, you’ll see here as I’m posting the elaboration of this one as I was curious about how they would play this one.)

Many reject the plain, cutting truths of the Bible because they involve a cross. They neglect the word of God because it is inconvenient.   They will be left to receive outrageous heresy for religious truth. "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
Some, unwilling to obey God’s requirements, attempt to overthrow God’s authority. They become infidels to excuse their neglect of duty. Others choose not to believe because of their pride and laziness. Too lazy to distinguish themselves by accomplishing anything worthy of honor, which requires effort and self-denial, they aim to secure a reputation for superior wisdom by criticizing the Bible. Many enjoy finding something in the Bible to confuse the minds of others. Some at first criticize and reason on the wrong side, from a mere love of controversy. They do not realize that they are, in reality, getting caught  in Satan’s trap. Having openly spoken with disbelief, they feel that they must defend their position.

(Yeah, this is a lot of assumptions and generalizations like the other things they wrote in their commentaries of the other points.  And none of it is accurately depicting much of anything.  So far all they’re really saying here is “Just trust me, I’m right and they’re wrong”.)

"Trust psychics, spirits, mediums and miracles."
"You can believe that Jesus was a good man Just don't believe He was God in human form."
"Don't be afraid of me, I am not a real individual."
(and there it is . . .the fear factor.)
"The second coming of Christ is His coming to each individual at death."

Jesus is coming again in a Secret Rapture

First response . . .
Carol Schminkey:
Lake of fire...weeping and gnashing of teeth...totally describes Hell to the letter....streets of gold...Fathers house has many mansions, if it were not true He would not have said it...totally describes Heaven...therefore, they are both real and which one we end up in is totally up to us

Matt Loehr
well said....

Jerry Higdon
I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture..(Don’t know who Jerry is)

And here we go . . .round one . . .
o Nathan Loehr
Just Remember little brother. . ."you" opened this can of worms this time . . . did ya think I'd shy away from the opportunity??

I used to believe all of that . . .but not anymore. I believe truth is in the perspective of the individual . . .change your perspective and truth takes on a whole new meaning. Perspective changes as our relationship with the Father changes. Flesh and blood can not teach what can only be spiritually (inwardly) revealed. Jesus didn't "teach" spiritual truths directly, he spoke in "parables" . . .symbolism . . .it took the spirit to "reveal" the meaning. Jesus did take the time to elaborate things to the disciples, and even "that" symbolizes a deeper truth, but until after the upper room experience, they still couldn't "see" what Jesus was trying to plant in them . . .spoken words are the seeds, reject them, the seed can't take root and grow it's fruit in us. Dissect the seed and we kill it . . .but if we instead just "let" the words grow BEYOND our understanding . . .truth with then birth into us things we would never see otherwise.

For me, the mainline church's stand on hell is the result of "men" adopting the teachings of other men, rather than embracing a revelation of their own. Everyone agrees that God is love . . . love casts out all fear . . .ALL fear . . .and yet here we are, proclaiming this same God has created a place of ETERNAL torment and if we don't accept his love, to hell with us. "That's" the rendition of what love is, but I no longer live according to that kind of love. The God I have fallen in love with is so much bigger than that. The cross is so much greater than that.

Jesus didn't go through everything he went through in "hopes" that "maybe" the world "might" be saved, if only THEIR MIND would accept him. What he did went beyond the power of the mind of men. That's what the "crown of thorns" was all about . . .he took the curse of the mind to the cross with him . . .THAT'S the GOOD NEWS here . . .there's no fine print about hell or damnation.

The idea that the very beings God himself brought about, he would turn around and send most of them into an eternal torment is so sad on so many levels. It is saying Jesus failed . . .according to the church, the majority of mankind is going to wind up in hell . . ."that's" the kind of God you really want to serve? There ARE consequences for our choices and we bring on a whole mess of issues when we make the wrong ones, or bad ones . . .but eternal torment for those whose LIMITED MINDS can't comprehend the infinity of God?

I totally realize that the majority of people reading this will more than likely reject the whole thing because in the eyes of many, I'm a false teacher, a member of some radical cult or whatever. And I'm really okay with that. But if there are others out there who are actually open minded enough to seriously hear what I'm trying to say, then this is all well worth the effort of sharing. There IS NO CONDEMNATION for those on either side. I just happen to think God is so much greater than the church is giving him credit for and so many have swallowed a pill that has brought about a great distortion from the greatness of God's power to actually set the world right . . .and he succeeded at accomplished the very thing he set out to do . . .redeem mankind back to the Father . . .WITHOUT the threat of eternal condemnation . . .using FEAR to entice us to fall in LOVE with him . . .that's just warped for me.

The lake of fire is taken out of context when you "assume" it's referring to hell . . .Revelation has the symbolism of the tabernacle of Moses all through it . . .the LAKE of fire . . .sea of glass . . .is connected to the laver . . .Solomon's version of the laver was actually called a "sea" as well. it's purpose is not to destroy, but to cleanse.

The Father's house for me isn't a depiction of some "place" on the other side as much as it is a daily walk through the infinite levels of understanding God's nature through our relationship with Christ. Christ is "in" the Father and he's prepared a place for us to be in the Father with him as well . . .but threatening us with hell if we don't? I don't buy that any longer . . .that's not how love works, not even close.

Jerry Higdon
Wow Nathan.. I can tell you're very intelligent and spiritual person. That was quite a write up and I appreciate it. Question: is there any established church or organization that has the same understandings? Seems to me, although what you propose sounds nice, it goes against a lot of what Scripture proposes..

Matt Loehr
passion and volume is not indicative of truth, wisdom or knowledge. They are not one in the same.....they can co-exist but have no relationship

Nathan Loehr
First . .Matt . . I don't base what I see on passion or volume, both of those are merely a reaction of seeing what I'm seeing. Jerry . . . yes . . .there are MANY others who see the same things on various levels due to the fact that we're ALL at different places in our relationship with the Father, and as such, we each see things a little different but the core principles are very much the same. The reason why you don't see them surfacing much in the church system is due to the fact the church won't allow it because as you say, it APPEARS to oppose what Scripture says.

The question is, how willing are we to lay down EVERYTHING we think we know and let God reshape the structure within us? The hardest thing for us to do is to remove the mind from the equation. It all starts there. You know of the story where this guy comes to Jesus and asks him what must he do to have eternal life . . it's in Matthew 19 if you want to look this up . . .And Jesus gives him a generic response of "Keep the commandments" and the guy responds by saying "that's what I have always done since I was a kid. . ."

Jesus then took it to another level of relationship . . . this is what we miss when we read the story. The guy had lived by the law all his life and felt he could "earn" this eternal life as a result of that. But God is multi-dimensional, as is our relationship with him as well. How much we let go of actually dictates how much he will give us. So Jesus then told the guy to sell everything he owned and give it to the poor . .. and that's where the conversation ended, the guy wasn't willing to give up everything he spent his life accumulating.

And that's also where many of us come to the ceiling of our ability to walk in spiritual truth. As Matt implies, it doesn't come by passion, by how many words we can put together, and it also doesn't come by logic, reason and intellect. Yet that's how we approach Scripture . . .the same way we'd approach any other book. The more we study it, we think that will give us a better understanding of it. But the difference here is, there's a veil between what is natural and what is spiritual. And once you enter into the spiritual side, you can't continue using the same rules that you did in the natural things. That's why Jesus stated that which is last is first, that which is least becomes the greatest . . .the kingdom of heaven operates through faith and grace . . .not through law and logic.

With this hell doctrine, we have it all nice and tidy in a little doctrinal box that puts bad people in hell and good people in heaven . . .but what if our intellect has it all backwards because we've embraced the Bible through our knowledge and not through faith? Quoting Scripture back and forth is not what faith is . . . Truth needs no defense, it stands on it's own merit. I share what I see, you have the ability to accept it or reject it. But again, the question is . . .how willing are you to lay down your preconceived ideas long enough to really listen and to really see the message of what I'm sharing?

Yes, it's radical, yes, it opposes what the church embraces. In fact, I had to actually step down from being a pastor of a church in order to fully embrace my own PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Father. I stayed under the radar of the denomination that I was supposedly representing for 8 years while I matured into the freedom of the abundant life the Father longs for ALL of his kids to experience. But churches are built by men, not by God . . .why do you suppose there are so many denominations out there in the first place? And every one of them thinks "they" have the truth, yet every one of them have no problem serving a God based on fear rather than love. A God who claims to love us, but will destroy us if we don't respond to that love.

Matt, in a previous conversation, one of your "conditions" to not accepting this was based on the passage about angels separating bad people from good people. You stated something along the lines of "until someone can convince me this isn't a literal event, I'm not going to be swayed into anything else." Or something to that affect . . .well . . .I have one for you . . .how can you explain the parable of the shepherd leaving the 99 sheep in search of the one that was lost? How does the church come up with sending so many people to hell, when Jesus taught that not one would be lost? Why would God tell us to love our neighbors . . .and Jesus tell us to love our ENEMIES . . .if God is going to destroy all of his?

If we're supposed to turn the other cheek . . .why? Because God is going to send them to hell in the end? Or could it be because that's how love works? Love manifests unconditionally . . .being hit in the face has no affect on the power of love. What of the people who murdered Jesus? As he hung on the cross and asked God to forgive them . . .did God do it? Or did they go to hell? They didn't show any repentance either . . .

It's not that I don't believe in hell . . .Jesus defined what hell is by the way . . ."In this world, you will have TRIALS and TRIBULATION . . . that, to me, is hell. But he notice 'where" it is . . .IN THIS WORLD . . .the church wants me to believe it's a spiritual place . . .a literal place . . .in the spirit . . .talk about a contradiction of terms. If it's in the spirit, it can't be a literal place . . .you can't have both. But the message there isn't about hell either . . .because Jesus followed that up by stating "Be of Good cheer . . .I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD . . .

If Jesus overcame death and the grave on the cross, then why do we still try to embrace a doctrine of death? How is that "good news"? Oh, and that reminds me . . .when Jesus entered into the temple at the beginning of his ministry and they opened the scrolls, he searched for the passage in Isaiah that prophesied his purpose . . .and even though it described Jesus' ministry to a "t", at no point in the prophecy did it mention anything about warning people about the destruction of this hell.

I know how crazy I sound, but I'm telling you, religion has put scales on the eyes of people so much so that the focus in the church "may" give the appearance of life in it's proclamations, but the more you embrace the church, the more the doctrine of death becomes it's identity. I was told in no uncertain terms that I didn't have the PRIVILEGE (Their exact words)  to preach any other hell, other than the one my denomination embraced . . .well . . .now I do have the privilege . . .and I'm loving every minute of it.

Jerry Higdon
What you propose is very interesting to say the least.. I can tell this isn't a fleeting thaught for you.. You mentioned or paraphrased several versses of the bible, just to give me some perspective, can you tell me how much of the bible do you believe? And does your spiritual illumination trump what is written? I didn't grow up with church or the bible and O didn't go to seminary.. so I had very little preconceived notions in that regard..

Nathan Loehr
I will tell you I "have" seen some people go to the extremes in regard to the validity of Scripture. I'm not one of them. I believe the events depicted truly have happened and the teachings of the New Testament are still very much relevant to our daily lives. However, contrary to most church-going people, I no longer base what I see according to what I read in Scripture. Scripture is not the final say, which is another idol the church worships. I believe the Word is IN US . . .in us ALL. I believe that word in us, speaks to our spirit things our minds can't grasp or comprehend. I can't tell you how many times I've heard myself saying something I've never heard before, but what comes out harmonizes with a message of resurrection, rest, and relationship . . . religion in me is dead and I'm thrilled to proclaim that.

Jerry you are a much more receptive person to this kind of thing because religion hasn't been able to establish any restraints in you for your mind to immediately guard against. My family has a lot of doctrine . . ."I" have a lot of doctrine . . .the difference is, I took the plunge into the unknown and they aren't quite as comfortable because of what they've learned about the God they worship.I came to a place in my life where I could hear this sound within me that didn't mesh with what I'd been taught all those years, so I had a choice to make. Either I lay down what I was taught, or I turn away from what I was beginning to hear. But even before I came to this place, I've had God speak to me on other occasions in my life where I could look back and know without a doubt that "that" was the voice of God speaking in me . . .and what I was hearing in these matters had that same definitive sound to it. So . . in faith . . .TOTAL faith, it had to be because I'd never seen the things I see now before that decision came. In faith I took the plunge and it was all a process.

What I share now is the culmination of 10 years of my life being saturated in everything "dimensional". I no longer cared about the restraints and warnings of others who couldn't see what I could see. My message had changed from including death and hell and torment and destruction and fear . . .to just pursuing Christ and the life he proposed . . .the abundant life, the life of freedom, and over the years, my entire belief system has been completely transformed, but it happened a little at a time.

Nathan Loehr
Never really answered your question fully . . .yes, I embrace the bible, but I don't read it for the literal content. Here's my position on that . . .Jesus never spoke on the same level as those who listened to him He spoke in parables . . .he'd say one thing, but it ALWAYS had a spiritual principle. We're instructed to walk in the spirit and not in our flesh . . .we're also instructed to LEAN NOT on our own understanding, yet religion does both. For me, the definition of religion is, anyone who takes spiritual truth (most often this is Scripture) and blends it with natural reasoning . . .human logic . . .common knowledge . . .all natural means for living in this natural realm . . .but when you use natural means to spiritual truth, it's a mixture and no longer pure, thus, religion is the result. Because "God" is in the content, people assume it's "of" God when clearly it's not.

Look at the end result of the message. From what I see and share, Love wins. From what the church sees, you "can" win if you repent, confess, acknowledge . . .obey . . .on and on. And if you don't do those things, well . . .God's just not strong enough to save you then. So it's "the devil" 1 and "God" zero.

Sorry, I do tend to jump around a lot, but there are so many things connected to so many other things, it becomes a net that just captures me and raptures me up to those ascended places Scripture implies but no "man" ever enters until they come to the death of their "self" and let their spirit take the lead.

Anyway, Jesus spoke in parables . . .and He is the Word . . .that "includes" the written word, but it's not "solely" only what's written on paper. With Christ, everything is dimensional and I believe he's given us a pattern in scripture of how that applies, thus the reason why I will never walk away from the Bible. In short, there are three basic dimensions to God, to man, and to Scripture. To God, in the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To man in spirit, soul and body . . .and to the Scripture in what is natural/literal (first dimension) that which is "moral" (second dimension) and that which is spiritual (third dimension)

The first two can be learned, taught and studied, but the latter only comes through personal revelation by way of relationship with Christ. Christ is, and has always been the centerpiece of my own identity. Just because I see things differently in no way takes away the importance of having a personal relationship with Christ, infact, it only enhances the importance. But it's not based on fear of hell if you don't, it's based missing his voice, his touch, his breath, his grace, mercy . . .the list goes on, but none of it induces fear. God's love has already dealt with our destiny. There is no concern for myself, nor for the rest of the world on that one . . .but the ability to reach into that inheritance and experience that unspeakable joy and life in this realm of death and destruction NOW?? That's a whole other story.

So Scripture for me is a book of signs, symbols and seeds. There's a specific reason why it was 40 years that Israel was in the wilderness, that it was 40 days it rained on Noah, that it was 40 days that Goliath taunted the armies of Israel, that it was 40 days Jesus was tempted, that it was another 40 days that he was on this earth after his resurrection . . . that it takes a woman 40 weeks from conception to birthing . . .God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths. That one is in Romans 1:20 I believe.

Everything is spiritual, but you have to allow the Father to take you to the ascended places in order for your spiritual eyes to "see". It's all about your perspective.

Nathan Loehr
crap . . .one more thing . . .I said I don't base what I see according to what I read in Scripture . . .that's because one, "that" is basing a belief with proof, not faith. And secondly, my mind filters everything I read, so I can't rely on what I "think" Scripture is saying because my "mind" is what's controlling the imagery of what's being said. but when I read it spiritually . . .applying what's written to me inwardly . . . then the Father reveals how that all fits together . . .and it takes away my ability and desire to measure other people's relationships based on what "I" think Scripture says about their actions . . . I still wrestle with that one from time to time.

Sheri Ulrich
I believe my faith is something not everyone is going to embrace, welcome or with which to agree. BUT, I will always listen to a person's opinion on their beliefs until they begin to attack mine.

Carol Schminkey (Carol is my sister)
Due to it being a waste of time that could be used to just be who I am in Him...I will not argue or debate over things I do not agree with...if we are all in the same space when the time comes for Him to gather us to take us Home...wherever we believe that is...then all debates and discussions won't matter anyway...we'll all sing with the angels and the hum of worship will surround us...

Jerry Higdon
Nathan, your mind intrigues me. Have you ever read The Shack? Seems some of what you pose is in that book.. Thanks for the explanations. Like you I believe that there is a lot in scripture that we try to fit within our limited earthly 3d mortal box of understanding. A good example of this is when Jesus wept, I believe a possible reason was due to our limited capability of understanding his message and purpose.. especially from Christ's eternal omnipresent omnipotent standpoint. As for church, I wouldn't guess that any denomination has it all figured out and is 100% accurate in their theological understanding, but Christ's bride is precious nonetheless.
You wrote "From what the church sees, you "can" win if you repent, confess, acknowledge . . .obey", I agree with that notion with the exception of obey.. as demonstrated and written by Paul, he (and I) will never fully achieve that perfectly, which causes me to to be woefully greatful and humble knowing that by His payment for my sin I still am worthy of Heaven.. As far as the lost goes.. if it wasn't so then why does it infer in so many places in the bible "for those who believe.."? and why did Christ say right before His ascension, to go?? You wrote "But it's not based on fear of hell if you don't, it's based missing his voice, his touch, his breath, his grace, mercy", I think you are right in that once a person realizes that God does exist but is denied fellowship with Him and the saints.. that is the definition of hell.. but I believe in this slice of time we aren't there yet..
Like you, I have been given the privilege of hearing what I believe to be God's voice a few times.. and it most assuredly got my attention.. but unlike you I choose to take His word more literal. . Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager? Which approach in communication with God's children would more than likely ensure the best opportunity for success in this regard?

Nathan Loehr
Carol . . .you so funny!! You "say" that it's a waste of time to discuss differences, but if you believed that . . .why are you announcing it? Should I apologize because you had to take the time to tell me you have better things to do than share your relationship with God with your little brother??? I'm just pulling your chain . . .as I stated before, I'm fine with you not either seeing what I'm sharing or disagreeing with it all together . . .there's room for differences of opinions for sure. We all have our talent the Father has given us . . .mine is in writing right now and I'm not all that willing to bury what's been given.

Jerry . . .yes to the Shack . . .loved the book. Extremely different understanding on how God operates in our lives to be sure. Todd Bell is another inspiration of mine, he's got a video message called "Everything is spiritual" Absolutely mind blowing. Have not heard of Pascal's Wager though.

Okay, as to the Scripture . . .I tend to confuse people when trying to explain my perspective of it. Same as the salvation thing . . .same as the hell thing. Once you cross a sacred line, the assumptions fly after that and people claim you believe things you never said. So, to be clear, I DO embrace Scripture, but not to the point where I tell you I believe this or that because Scripture says this or that about it. It's not that Scripture "doesn't" say this or that, it's that the Word revealed itself to me inwardly and what that does is, it positions you, it gives you a different perspective from which to observe, and THEN when you read Scripture, it affirms what's already been spoken. The word in us removes the veil, so that the Word in Scripture has a whole new life.

For instance . . .David and Goliath . . .simple kids story . . .there literally was a David, Goliath really did have 6 fingers on each hand . . .it's all a true story, that I believe in faith, not because Scripture says it, but because there's so much more to it. The literal story is the first dimension . . . the introductory level of understanding.

The second dimension of this story is the moral story . . .everyone has felt at one time or another in their life how they feel like little David up against a big ugly giant in their life . . .the moral value of Scripture can fit just about any personal experience we have on any given day.

So what's the spiritual picture? Well . . .it's all in the patterns. It starts with asking yourself lots of questions. Talk about the Father's house . . .a question is what opens the door into the House of God. We don't come to the Father knowing . . .we come to him "asking". So why" did Goliath have six fingers? Why did he have 6 toes . . .why did his spear weigh 6 cubics? Uh oh . .there's a pattern here . . .666 Gasp! The mark of the beast!! Run for the hills!!!

Seriously, has anyone taken the time to look for themselves at what the number 666 represents? It's right there in Revelation . . .it's the mark of man. The number 6 is the number of man. Not the spirit man, the carnal man . . .Goliath represents the carnal man IN US . . .the mark of the beast . . .ever heard of the passage that says "man, at his best is a beast"? It's in there.

I love this story as it foretells of what Jesus does/did for every one of us on the cross. Goliath represent the carnal man in us . . .David, the Spirit man in us picks up FIVE, the number of grace smooth stones, not cut by human hands . . .symbolizing Christ who is our Rock and David uses his sling, and releases this smooth stone which doesn't hit Goliath (carnal man) anywhere else but in the FOREHEAD . . .depicting of how the Word penetrates the carnal mind . . .renewing the mind, bringing the man of flesh down to the earth but that wasn't enough . . .it took a sword (the word of God) to separate his head from his body, why? Because we are not the head, we are the body, Christ is the head. It's not enough to have the word penetrate our mind, our mind must be severed all together from the body.

Every story in Scripture carries with it a spiritual message, all of which pronounce the message of redemption, resurrection, and Rest . . .religious need not apply.
Carol Schminkey glad I'm not the head...people are confused enough after I speak my mind....

2Recent Face Book conversation about hell with those who have eyes but can't see. Empty Part 2 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:03 pm


Raven Ann Matheny (Carol's daughter, my niece)
SO Nathan, beings that I am my mother's daughter in some sense, WHAT do you mean by the definition, PLEASE be nice, I am already over the limit of input, As said by Johnny Five....but I don't quite understand what you mean, USE small words to where I can understand.

Nathan Loehr
The definition of what?

Raven Ann Matheny
what your explaining

Nathan Loehr
I guess I didn't realize I was giving a definition to anything. Explaining dimensions to skeptical minds doesn't really accomplish a whole lot. I share what I see to the best of my ability and pray the Father will "break it down" within the understanding of the recipient. For me, seeing it and understanding it isn't the problem . . .explaining it to those who can't see it is. (Not aiming this at you Raven, just so you know, I'm speaking in general terms here).

Remember the number of times Jesus would say . . .and John said it in Revelation as well . . ."he that hath an ear let him hear . . ." That always intrigued me because everyone has ears, why would Jesus say that? And now I see what he was doing was, he was offering a word of truth to the spirit of those around him, but it could only be heard spiritually. The religious people were spiritually deaf due to their minds blocking out spiritual sound by emitting what you could call "white noise" Scripture speaks to clanging symbols . . . those who lack the love of God have no harmonic sound in their nature, just annoying noise and that's the same feeling I get when I see preachers pounding their pulpits, instilling fear into their members as they sell their goods . . .they've turned spiritual intimacy into a product and a formula they take to their pulpits to sell . . .and like any salesmen, they'll bend the truth enough to get you to respond to their rhetoric. After a while, they begin believing themselves . . .religion at it's finest.

Being one who was born into religion, not just as a member of a church, but a pastor of one as well, and then set free from the system that I once embraced, not even realizing how much the doctrines were entanglements keeping me from being one with ears that "could" actually hear and eyes that really could see, I've found myself walking with a two-edged sword so-to-speak. On the one hand, my message and identity is one of life, freedom, a TRUE personal relationship, not governed by an organized religious sect. And that includes coming against the idea that God is sending those he loves and cherishes to eternal torment just because their limited minds can't comprehend his infinity.

And on the other side of this sword is a message denouncing the church system itself. Not the people in it, but the leadership of it. The church has become so big that people won't question it's foundation because "apparently someone is doing something right . .. look at the size of it!" Yet, using that same logic, you could say the same thing about satan . . .it was but a serpent in Genesis, but it grew into a dragon by the time Revelation manifested.

He that hath an ear . . . do you think when Peter cut the ear off of that guy, that it was just a random event recorded in Scripture? Or do you think, in God's infinite wisdom, that perhaps he brought that to be, as an example of what happens when we fight amongst ourselves. The recipient of Peter's sword wasn't just a by-stander and he wasn't a soldier either . . .he was a "servant" of the high priest. He represented tradition. Peter, full of passion and emotion, welding a sword . . .which is never a good combination in the first place, but "he" represents the new church . ..the followers of Christ. So you have old religion attempting to remove Christ from the venue and you have the New followers of Christ taking a position to defend Jesus at any cost. And what happens?

All that gets accomplished is one brings deafness to the other. The old religion loses their ear to hear, and the new church gets rebuked from the very one they're thinking they need to defend. THIS is why I say truth needs no defense, it stands on it's own merit. This is why I quit rebuking people for not seeing things as I see them. I have MANY differences in my point of view with pretty much everyone I cross paths with, but I've learned to not push my views on anyone unless they open the door . . .which is why I'm taking advantage of "this" particular thread by the way . . .

But the bottom line is, I see hell to be a much different place than most. I don't believe in the rapture anymore either. I don't believe the devil is who the church claims him to be, which would then affect the demon issue as well . . .the trinity doctrine has collapsed in me as well. The effects of being baptized in the spirit . . .I meant it when I said my entire belief system has come crashing down. You know why? Because of threads like this one . . .the topic is opened up but then what's shared is not what someone personally experienced from God himself, but it's something someone else wrote that has been adapted and adopted over and over again. The doctrines built are not ones that God established, but they are doctrines built by men. How dare I say that! How do I know? By the results . . .the message . . .

Whenever you have a message based on fear . . .I guarantee you . . .it didn't come from God. God is love. Love is not the evidence of God . . .love IS God. Until we get that, we'll continue to miss the fact that love casts out all fear. We'll quote it, but we won't "get it" because we're to busy defending our battle fronts. As Jesus told Peter . . .put away your sword. The way we've used the Word of God is abusive. That's why I don't use the Bible as the final say. What is the final say is the message that's being projected. Is what I'm THINKING the Bible says a message of life or death? If it's death, then it's not the spirit of God giving the message . . .and that's what this hell doctrine is all about . . .it's about fear . . .destruction of men, torment of men . . .

For me, there is destruction, but it's not men being destroyed . . it's the man in men. The adversary in us all is what is destroyed as we pass through the fire of God, who IS a consuming fire. And he purges us from the carnality in us, he purifies us with his mere presence in us. Our carnal man can not see God . . .but our spirit man is OF God which is why we are called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. Everything is truly spiritual. If all we see around us is death and destruction, that's a testament as to they type of eyes we're looking through. Being cross-eyed is a wonderful thing.

John Nelson
Lake of fire or streets of gold......I choose the streets of Gold....you see its a choice God does not send us anywhere he allows us to choose....He wants us to choose Him, so choose what you will but I choose the Streets of Gold....

Nathan Loehr
Okay, I'm glad you brought this up again, I've kinda been all over the place here and I didn't want to make it look like I'm splitting hairs. But look at what the assumption is here, Scripture talks about not adding a jot or tittle . . .people love taking that one out of context . . .but anyway . . .guys . . .Revelation has NEVER said ANYTHING about STREETS of gold. What it DOES say is STREET . . .ONE . . .. there's a huge difference because of the symbolism. In Genesis there was ONE river with no name . . .it splits into four rivers, which is the opposite of what you see in the natural . . .streams run together and make a river, but in the spirit it's one river that splits into streams.

But the symbolism of this ONE street in Revelation is connected to the one river in Genesis that runs through the whole garden . . .it speaks of sovereignty . . . oneness . . .it speaks of God the Father. And for me, the lake of fire and the Street of Gold is one and the same . . .it's God, the refining fire that causes the dross to float to the surface and removed by the master-smith himself. It's what God does in every one of us.

Revelation 21 . . .the ONLY one verse that even mentions it.
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

This New Jerusalem is not a literal city in the invisible realm. WE are that city . . .WE are spiritual Jews . . .WE are living stones that God has placed within the structure of his sanctuary. A gate depicts authority and right of passage . . .Christ is the ONLY Gate that leads to life, yes? He is the ONE, the SOVEREIGN Lord, the SINGLE street/river. But here that one river is splitting into 12, the number of God's government, which at it's core is love. To understand who the pearls are is to understand what a pearl goes through before it becomes a pearl.

But in short . . .WE are the pearls, like that grain of sand lodged in the oyster at the very bottom of the depths of the ocean, so are we, a foreign element lodged in this lower realm of life. And yet, we are covered, layer upon layer with grace. Our identity transforms from an irritant to an iridescent, like a pearl, there is a glow about our nature due to miracle of God's grace in our lives. At our core, like a pearl, we are still a grit of sand, but that was a lifetime ago and our identity is no longer of this earth, this flesh, this realm.

Now, because of our experience through this process of life, we've become gateways that lead into the city of the NEW Jerusalem. "That's" why we're not to be silent, uncaring, inactive in sharing where our relationship with God is . . .we are the gates of pearl . . .we lead others into the kingdom. Now . . .you tell me, how can I lead someone into a glorious place such as this, if my message is focussed on death, darkness and eternal torment?

Even hell is cast into the lake of fire, so to say people are going to spend eternity in hell is a false teaching from the get-go. The purpose of the fire is to purify, not do torment. It's to destroy the man in men, not the men themselves. Can you feel the difference between this message and a traditional hell-fire message?

I've heard people over the years actually thank the pastor for beating them up from the pulpit. They call it discipline. Jesus message wasn't about what you do or don't do, but instead, it's about who you are. You are called . . .are you willing to be chosen?

The gnashing of teeth . . .just wanted to expound on that one a bit as well . . . once the church has positioned you in a place of judgment, everything you read from that position will reflect judgment. That's why I said at the very beginning of all of this, it's all about perspective. So when you're already convinced hell exists, everything you read with YOUR MIND will APPEAR to be connected to hell in one form or another.

This "gnashing of the teeth" is merely an expression of attitude against something. It has nothing to do with someone being in such torment that they grind their teeth. Let me show you something . . .

Matthew 27
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
Nathan Loehr Didn't mean to send that yet . . .but look at the last verse there . . ."cast the same in his teeth" means the same thing as "gnashing their teeth". It had nothing to do with them being in hell then anymore than it does now. But this isn't the only place . . .there's another . . .

The more obvious place happened at the stoning of Stephen . . .which for me (brace yourself) was the end of the 70 weeks Daniel spoke about. But that's for another time. But look at the wording here right at the end of Stephen's speech.

Acts 7
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

When we see all these other passages in Scripture that speaks to outer darkness (to shed light on something is to "reveal" it's presence, so to be in the dark is to be what? Ignorant, cut off from awareness) and the gnashing of teeth, it has nothing to do with personal pain and suffering. It's speaking about the state of the religious who become enraged against the message of life, resurrection, rest and relationship with the Father

Raven Ann Matheny
@Nathan, I don't take anything personally anymore, so feel free to express, its just I meant what I said, I don't understand a lot of things, I was in math yesterday and it took them twelve times for them to explain the same problem to me, so WHEN I say I don't get it, ITS not like I am saying I am stupid and I trying to start a problem IT means I don't get it, but every person has their own spiritual walk and ways they are close to the Father, I just know in my heart what I believe and I don't need to have people shoving their views on me, I listen and then I decide and pray on how I should intrepret it.

o Nathan Loehr
As it should be.

Carol Schminkey
so...the only consequence for people who choose to live in sin, knowing of God and His love...is that after they die....nothing? And if Jesus isn't 'coming back to take his bride' then those that have been waiting in anticipation for 'the rapture' are waiting in vain because it wasn't to be taken literal? There are no streets of gold, no mansion awaiting me, no hell for those that did not choose to accept his son, or Lake of Fire, for all eternity....it was all just 'parables' and such? If there is no damnation, then what's the point of being a christian...just for the relationship part, and then we die and the soul goes...where?

o Nathan Loehr
I have a response but it won't let me send it.  (I think it was because it was too big . . .I pasted it to a word document, emailed it to myself and copied and pasted it to facebook in three chunks)

Nathan Loehr (Chunk one)
The only consequence for people who don't know God is . . .to live in darkness all their lives, to live in bondage, to live without hope, peace, any of the attributes of the spirit, to be destined to fail all the years of their life here. To be controlled by the carnality in them that will lead to their own collapse. It has nothing to do with what happens after we die. Death is the veil that keeps us from actually being free from these bodies of limitation. The gift is, we are living beings in these bodies of death . . . they've even proven that the moment you're born, you begin to die. That's how this realm operates. This is the realm where knowledge controls even the flesh of the beings living in it. There's a good reason why Adam was not to eat of this tree. It was in the garden as a balance to the whole, when he took from his Eve, that was broken rule number one, then he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, broken rule number two, he could no longer remain in the garden after eating of knowledge because the garden is spirit . . .sorry . . .another sermon for another day again . . .

To say that there should be punishment after we die is to also say the cross isn't enough. Religion is such a subtle beast in and of itself. It claims that Jesus is Lord, all the while, it instills in us that the only way what Jesus did will ever go into effect in our lives is if OUR MINDS acknowledge it. I'm merely giving ALL power back to the cross by saying what Jesus did over-rides the minds of men. Think about this . . .what do you suppose happens to you if God just showed up at your house, to your face . . .so you think you'd be changed by that experience? Do you think his very presence would instantly purify you and you'd immediately just begin worshiping him without even consciously choosing to do so? I happen to think we would do just that. He created us, we worship him when we become aware of his TRUE presence in our lives.

The people that reject God aren't rejecting the True God . . .they're rejecting an image of God that somebody imposed on them. The church has built this image of God that destroys those who don't bow down to him . . .but the God I serve loves me whether I bow down to him or not, and he's CHOSEN ME . . .we all live in sin whether we choose to or not. This isn't about our ability to live sinless lives. I for one already know without a doubt I cannot live a sinless life in that light . . .I've even preached it's impossible to live for Jesus . . .I don't care what the bumper stickers say. We don't have the capability in our "self" to be pure. But, we "can" let him live in and through us . . .which is so much easier, not to mention more effective.

And no, Jesus isn't coming to literally take a fraction of people away to have a literal 7 year party in a literal place somewhere beyond the galaxy in a mystical spiritual place and party while the rest of our brothers and sisters on earth get what they deserve . . .are you listening to any of this? Doesn't that just sound a bit egotistically morbid?

The truth is . . .if ONE PERSON would ever go to hell, then Jesus failed . . .he didn’t' come to save a few, he came to save the whole world. That's what God loved so much that he sent his son, and that's what God saved. It's religion that has segregated us from each other to say who can go and who can't. How can you love your neighbor as yourself if your mind is constantly on evacuating and abandoning the very ones we're supposed to be loving? So yes, all those people right now who are on the edge of their seats, waiting for Jesus to come and take his bride away from this earth . . .they have been deceived and have wasted much of their time. You do know that Jesus specifically prayed AGAINST the rapture, do you not? It's in John.

o Nathan Loehr (Chunk two)
As to the streets of Gold . . .sigh . . .really? If this street is signifying God himself, are you really saying you'd rather have a golden street . . .which is transparent by the way, but regardless, you'd rather walk on a literal gold street than have your walk, your identity become so pure there's no beginning or end of your nature in him . . .you become transparent in the purity of his presence . . .this is so far beyond what our minds can grasp, which is why I cringe at how religion lies people into thinking God is only as powerful as the minds of men.

So . . . what's the point of being a Christian . . .alas, NOW we're getting to the crux of the matter. Because THIS is the most commonly asked question by just about everyone I've ever come across that reject the idea that Jesus redeemed ALL MEN back to the father. Because it's a very HUGE tell . . .like when you're playing poker and you get a good hand, but you inadvertently give it away by your facial expression or body movements . .. when the question finally surfaces "What's the point of being a Christian if we're all going to end up in the same place?" It's telling me that the hand you've been dealt is a losing hand. And if you make a bid, I know you're bluffing, even if you don't.

Okay, enough with the analogy on it, here's the meat of it. What that question is saying is, the only reason why people choose Jesus is not because they're in love with him, or because they are transformed by him or that they're famished for him, long for his touch in their lives . .. no . . .it's because they don't want to go to hell. He's a ticket to them, not a savior. And then religion has dressed him up into this great and mighty genie that brings you prosperity . . .the entire emphasis goes away from who God is and what he's done for his creation (us) to "what's in it for me".

Until we embrace what true love is, we'll always be judging whether the sentence is stiff enough for everyone else when they mess up. Jesus IS forgiveness. it goes beyond our comprehension, so is it any wonder that it also goes beyond our permission as well. Carnality has ruined people's lives so much so that they don't even know how to love. Men are loving men and women are loving women and they're demanding that good Christians accept them because that's what Jesus would do. And many people are buying into that . . .many Christians are beginning to defend them now because they've still not got a grasp on true love. Love doesn't judge, so this isn't a bash against gays and lesbians, but at the same time, whether they are loved or not by God, which we know they are, but it doesn't change the fact that they still can't reproduce because that's not the pattern God originally established.

But carnality does that, it distorts clarity. What's going on today in the mall where innocent people have been murdered . . .according to tradition, those men deserve to go to hell . . .fore ever and ever and ever because they murdered. But didn't Jesus even say if we break one part of the law, we've broken the whole law? Love covers all of it. The cross paid for all of them. If it wasn't for carnality ruining humans, there would be no murdering, no stealing, no abusing each other . . .God isn't destroying men because the carnality in them ruined them, he's destroying the carnality so that they can be renewed back to him. God doesn't hate those that reject him, he's not going to eternally punish those who are blind to his infinity . . .he's going to purge the carnality out of them and heal their eyes so all men can see him and his Word will be fulfilled that EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY TONGUE will confess that Jesus is Lord. How will that happen? Through the healing power of his presence in their lives. THERE'S your rapture.

Nathan Loehr  (Chunk three)
When we come into the realization of who God is in us, we will be caught up . . .so caught up in him that we'll no longer worry about judging whether others should pay a penalty for their carnality or not . . .we'll just be in love with the Father because he's revealed his love to us. So no . . .there's no hell waiting for bad people after they die . . .that's religious lies.

The reason why it's so important to be a Christian is so that we can REPRODUCE his nature through us and into others. It's not about us getting in heaven or avoiding hell . . .it's about us reproducing after our own kind . . .which is Christ in us. So ABSOLUTELY salvation is important. But it has nothing to do with hell. It has everything to do with LOVE.

Okay . . .this has been long . . .big surprise, but listen again to the tone, are you hearing life in what I'm sharing? Or death? Freedom or bondage?

Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY. If your message is anything else, don't you think "that" should be an indicator that something is amiss? Still desiring to be chosen rather than called? If we believe we "are" among the chosen, then why are we embracing a message of fear and death?

Dale Matheny (My niece Raven's husband, who had become a licensed minister with the expectation to be a youth pastor but it didn't pan out for them.)
If there is no hell or punishment, than God must be cruel, because he sent his only son to earth to be beaten and die to save us. If they aren't real then there is nothing to be saved from.

Nathan Loehr
Dale . . . what is cruel is a God who creates human beings only to turn around and torment them for eternity. God knows the end from the beginning, so he already knows when people are born that they're destined to hell. That's not cruel? And the claim that it isn't God who sends us to hell, that it's our choice is just as bad because we're saying we worship a God who is all-knowing, who created beings that are severely limited in understanding their maker, but with that handi-cap, they are responsible for making decisions that affect them eternally.

It's like giving an infant sheet music to a symphony and expecting them to play it on a piano.

We are created in God's image . . .every human being that ever breathed air on this earth has a form of God within them. But those that are going to hell . . .we're going to accept the idea that God is okay with torturing his own image? This goes on and on guys. Look at how tightly you're embracing a doctrine of death and declaring it's God. There is NO good news about hell. The gospel is not about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins so we could finally have an OPTION to choose heaven over hell, that opens a whole other can of worms. One thing Matt's original link commented on was about kids going in the rapture . . .there is NO basis ANYWHERE in Scripture that says anything about what happens to kids, other than Jesus saying that heaven is full of them . . .Yet everyone will nod in agreement that kids are exempt from the pits of hell. And they justify that by naming it "age of accountability".

This says nothing about the mentally handicapped people whose minds are severely damaged or broken and they can't even wipe their own nose on their own, let alone comprehend they are sinners . . .and the mutes . . .all mutes are going to hell because they can't confess their sinners . . .Even in Scripture where Jesus gave A PARABLE about the rich man and Lazarus . . .there was no indication that Lazarus was a godly man, or the rich man denounced God, yet every believer knows that "that" story is a foundational platform from which the doctrine of hell is referred to regularly. It's all about our perspective.

The crown of thorns wasn't a random act that the soldiers just conjured up on their own, or the religious leaders thought would be really humiliating, that was predestined as well because what it represents is what Jesus is saving us from . . .the curse of the mind. Paul states our mind is at enmity against God, it's always at war with God . . .it's never in harmony with God. We know Scripture says his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts . . .and I'll even add his logic is not like our logic, is judgment is not like our judgment. Then Jesus adds that in the kingdom, what we think is greatest is actually the least, what we think should be first is actually last . . .spiritual truth does not operate with the same standards as natural reasoning. THAT is why we're called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh .. .THAT is why we're instructed to lean NOT on our own understanding.

Of course, logically, ungodly people should be punished. Just like if a woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery, she should be punished! She should be judged! She . . .whoops . . . I guess Jesus already covered that one . . .he let her go without one word of condemnation, warning or punishment. If ever there was a time to "instruct" someone about the suffering of hell, you'd think "that" would have been one of them.

There are ALWAYS consequences for our choices, good or bad. But eternal hell is not one of those consequences. I still haven't had any takers on how Jesus leaving the 99 sheep in search for the one lost one fits in with God sending people to hell yet. We are like lost sheep who have gone astray . . . and God's principles state "good riddance, it was your choice to leave your shepherd, you deserve being tortured . . ."?

Here's what's really happening around us right here, right now . . . just like 2000 years ago when the old system was removed and a new order was established . . .Jesus prophesied "then" that the temple would be torn down, but in three days he would raise it up . . .resurrect it from the dead. They took that literally as well and didn't understand a word he said. John saw clearly later that Jesus was referring to his body of flesh, but that was only through the Holy Spirit, which was now "in" him after the upper room experience, that opened his eyes to what Jesus really meant.

Jesus warned the disciples against the influence of the Pharisees, "Beware of the leven of the Pharisees" he said to them . . .and you know how they took that? They thought Jesus was upset because they didn't bring any bread. Religion can't see spiritual truth, it can only embrace the tangible things. This experience has completely redefined what faith is to me as well. That's what a renewing of the mind does, it doesn't make new things, it makes the old things new. The same verses you embrace that you think support your doctrine of hell, I see them to be the evidence that this same hell doesn't even exist.

I do believe there is a hell . . .but not the one the church embraces.

Which reminds me . . .I remember one of Pastor Larry's (The pastor of the church I used to attend before becoming a pastor myself, Raven and Dale still attend that church.)  favorite lines would be "Grace is not grease" and I would always nod in complete agreement. But now? Not so much. You claim the God I pursue is cruel, yet you're okay when Paul, who had a serious issue in his life that haunted him so much that on three separate occasions he asked God to remove it from his life and on every request, God's reply was .. .his grace is sufficient . .. so I'd have to think that your God is fine with having his servants live in turmoil . . .

But now? I've written songs about how I now embrace the Grace. It really is all that's sufficient for me. We think we have to live perfect lives and we have to discipline ourselves to live by a strict set of rules and when we fail . . .and we will fail at it . . .God will come down on us . .hard . . .in love of course, so it will make us stronger. But if that's the case, then grace isn't enough, but our works are what give us access to his love and generosity. It's just a warped way of living in Christ . . .actually, it's not living in Christ at all, it's living in religion. But that's just me.

Nathan Loehr
I never finished the one point pertaining to what I see happening right here and now. "Tear this temple down and in three days I will raise it up . . ." Yes, Jesus was referring to his natural body to those standing there at that time. But as I mentioned earlier . . . God is multidimensional as is his Word. "They" thought Jesus was talking about literal buildings, but he was talking about his literal body. But he was/is also talking about US . . .we are his craftsmanship. We are living stones connected together to become the Father's house. But what's happened to most of us is, we've built our own structure of what our minds have concluded. We had Christ come as the cornerstone but we elected to use our own materials, be it purposefully or through the deceit of the carnality in us and others, and the entire system can not sustain itself. But what's happening now is, it's been two days (2, thousand years) since Jesus prophesied he'd resurrect his church . . .we are entering into the 3rd Day, this is the day the resurrecting of his temple will manifest and it's not anything like the structure that we've been building on all these years.

This is going to be a temple of HIS doing, of HIS assembling together so is it any wonder that the message coming out of it is one of life and not death, one of faith and not proof, one of pure love and not fear. Those with the honor of spreading the GOOD NEWS will be carrying his message of love and forgiveness, not fear and punishment. Church as we've known it and embraced it isn't going to be around that much longer because it's lost it's center. It's become conforming rather than freeing.

I told my congregation when I was pastoring that if I wasn't a pastor of a church, I more than likely wouldn't attend one at all because the life they claim to have is based on fear and death. I want my life with the Father to be based on love, true love. I don't want to pursue a ministry that gives place to demons, the devil, death or destruction. Christ over came all of that, so why would I want to continue to advance it?

Again there's no condemnation here in any of this. I know my views are very contrary to most others around me in both family and friends. I've come to accept that. And the other thing this does is it takes away the worry and concern about where everybody else is going. I can actually embrace the Father without looking over my shoulder in sadness at the idea the rest of the world is going to hell. All this has done is increase my appreciation for God, it's done nothing to cause me to become lethargic in what I believe. I love him more now that I did when I was pastoring even. The more I realize how great his grace is, the more I fall in love with him . . .over and over and . . .over and over again.

Nathan Loehr
Is that it? That was fun while it lasted. Thanks Matt for at least making the invitation . . . Blessings

Nathan Loehr
For the record . . .this link you started out with . . . not one of this guy's points are even relevant to this entire discussion and two . . . it smacks with religion, very rigid, biligerant and loveless. But mostly, I just wanted you to know I do not relate to any of his "10" items he lists here . . .none of them are accurate or legitimate points of interest

As this conversation played out, I began taking snippets out of it and posting them on my own facebook page . . .this got a reaction from my other sister . . .  But I can’t find the stupid thing and I’m out of time.  Maybe later.

Then I got a text from my daughter . . .somewhere in the conversation I had mentioned this conversation on face book . . .she looked it up and took it to her bedroom, laid on her bed and read everything I said out loud . . .it lit a fire in her . . .she called her cousin whom she hangs out with and made him look it up on his face book and they were sharing back and forth . . .she texted me that he and his friend were listening to her as she read the comments . . .they were connecting with it right away . ..then . . .a couple days later I get a text from my other daughter, they are living together . . .and she wanted to go out to eat with me after I got off work.

I had already worked a 12-hour day and wasn't really that hungry, but I thought I'd just get a dessert . . .but they chose mexican . . .their desserts aren't any good . .. so we all ordered a meal and amazingly . . .I only took two bites of mine and I was the one that ate the most . . .neither of them touched their food.  It wasn't until about then that I realized they didn't want to go out and eat with Dad, they wanted Dad to share with them more from that face book conversation . . .

Something broke in my older daughter that night . . .she had been fighting with depression which I didn't know about . . .and just spending that hour together, God had penetrated through that depression . . .again, I didn't know any of this until after I got home and she sent me a text.  When she went to her car that night, as I drove away, she just broke down and cried and cried because she felt the depression leave her . . . What a mighty God we serve.  

It wasn't anything I said, it was the same spirit pouring through me that poured into this face book conversation.  Just planting seeds of life is enough to set the captives free . . .there was no laying on of hands and rebuking evil spirits . . .all that was there was releasing what was given, nothing more.  Awesome time.


Nathan, that was/is awesome, piercing my heart again and again making holes in my mind for His Spirit to flow out of the fountain of His heart, and then is manifested in this flesh as tears.

Read every word and plan on reading again.

Thank you very much for sharing

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding


I found that conversation with my sister . . .actually it was more of just a response . . .she wouldn't share anymore than just one remark. Here's what I had copied from the original conversation that got a response out of her.

If it wasn't for carnality ruining humans, there would be no murdering, no stealing, no abusing each other . . .God isn't destroying men because the carnality in them ruined them, he's destroying the carnality so that they can be renewed back to him. God doesn't hate those that reject him, he's not going to eternally punish those who are blind to his infinity . . .he's going to purge the carnality out of them and heal their eyes so all men can see him and his Word will be fulfilled that EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY TONGUE will confess that Jesus is Lord. How will that happen? Through the healing power of his presence in their lives. THERE'S your rapture.

Then she responds with this . . .
Mona Loehr
So...Nathan did a great job explaining how it could or would be if one of us were in charge....but....somebody else beat us to it and HE says differently - HE describes heaven and hell pretty clearly as HE made it along with the promises AND consequences related to our free will choices (not unlike most society mandates or even our family unit upbringing in general)...I may be tempted to redefine it if I don't like hearing the real deal....but in the end...those who are in charge that set up the rules, rewards and consequences are most likely who we should be listening to...this is just my one and only, "tongue in cheek" attempt at input...so now you can all just continue the debate....carry on;)

I wrestled quite a bit before settling on a response . . .I could feel her manipulation and twisting of my words in her response and at first, that was what I responded to but I backed up and gave it some thought before responding back . . .I know this message isn't mine and that it's a message of life and freedom, but with her condescending tone . . .I just wanted to smack her up side the head with it. Freakin' siblings!!

But after deleting a couple rough drafts, heres the one I settled on.

Nathan Loehr
Well, I'm not about to try to change what you think but these are merely excerpts from a conversation I've been having with our brother. If you want it in it's whole context, you'll have to go to his page and see it in it's whole context. I don't share these things because I've become disconcerted with the existing options of interpretation. I was completely fine with where I was without any plan to change course.

But when things begin to be shaken within you, everything you thought you had nailed down begins to shift and lean, questions about things become irrelevant. Knowledge becomes white noise . . .the letters to all the words start trading places and what used to be sound doctrine turns into jibberish because the "presence" of what can't be seen begins to make itself known and with it comes the realization that there's been a mixture of truth and lies that have been a part of a foundation inside that can't continue any longer if the hunger for truth is real. Being willing to walk away from everything that makes you "you" is not an easy thing to do. But the presence inside was too strong to deny . . .there was no fear, no threat, no judgment or condemnation, just an urgency to press on with empty hands and open arms.

When you're on the verge of freedom breaking loose inside you, doctrines and theologies have little influence at this point. And then, the transformation begins. Nothing is required other than a submissive willingness to just "let" it happen. And so I did. When I came out on the other side, I was a loosed man that had no religious foundation left. All I had was an awareness that NOTHING in God is as what the mind of man imagines it to be. Nothing that religion has taught even comes close to what love is. To what freedom is.

Those in charge do not use fear to motivate you to love. Not any more. Those in charge are whoever I give my allegiance to. I've been saying this over and over . . .but the fact is, truth is in the perception of the individual. Change their position, it affects their understanding of what truth is. In the transformation within me, my position changed as well . . .and as such . . .my perception of truth has been turned upside down. That is why we are now seeing things so differently. The religious system has it's purpose, but the time comes when it's taken us as far as it can and we take the leap of faith from it into the unknown . . .it's called faith . . .but when we don't, the system that got us there becomes the prison that keeps us there.

I can't share what I see if I remained in the system of "those in charge". The time has come for me to let what's been birthing inside come out. It's not going to go away. It's only going to grow . . .churches are going to begin shrinking and along with that comes the loss of the influence they've had as well. The religious system has run it's course. It's drawn lines, built walls and laid foundations that no longer can sustain the weight of it's own power.

I don't mean to sound like I've gone off the deep end, but at the same time, there are MANY in the church that are continuing to be called out of it. The message that's coming forth is not one of hell, death, sin, darkness, control and bondage . . . it's one of love, life, freedom, relationship over religion and rest over labor.

Explaining as if one of us were in charge? That's been the problem all along . . .we ARE in charge, it was given to us when Jesus gave us the authority before he went back to the other side. The problem is, we've not been exercising that authority, we've been too busy measuring sin and sounding warnings against others who don't live according to our standards. We've been too busy drawing lines as to what you can believe and what you can't believe. We've been too busy emphasizing the wrong messages of Scripture. And all it's resulted in is more conformity and chaos. The church has lost her ability to hear the "sound" of truth and she's become the clanging symbol we have spent so much time pointing our fingers at others for the same exact thing.

but I'm not trying to change what you think . . .I'm trying to let the seed of life take root and do the changing in peoples lives all by it's self. I share what I see. I embrace what I can reach, the rest is up to the recipient.


Nathan Loehr
Well, isn't this interesting . .. I'm on an email loop with a group of friends in Wisconsin mostly, and one of them will daily send out a scripture verse of the day. Today they posted this one . . . talk about validation . . .

Isaiah 55:2-3
Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and EAT WHAT IS GOOD.
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and you shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you--
The sure mercies of David.

I put in caps the part that jumped out at me the most . . .in lue of our conversation here . . .please tell me what part of the hell doctrine is good?? What part of explaining to people their loved ones who have passed on are now living in torture for the rest of their lives? What part of preaching to people that they need to adhere to a set of rules if they are truly saved is "good"? Why have so many people spent so much of their livelihood feeding on what is not the bread of life? And then defending it? Hear what I've been sharing and live . . .so what my message is against the norm, look at it's content . . . choose life.


That was the end of it . . .noone else said anything. My family has never been ones to debate, they have their opinions and they keep them pretty close to their chest. You can share what you want, but all you are to them is a sibling, unqualified to be a part of their brick-laying of doctrinal understanding. So . . .when the season presents itself, you plant when you can . . .and be ready because the seasons with them are pretty short most of the time. We'll see what pops up in them when their spring time comes around.


So Nathan, this is great as usual. I would tell you there is more though, that you need to consider. You have to be able to reconcile every verse in the bible that calls out hell. Even then, there are those who would rather punch you in the face over receiving truth. LOL, but that is religion for you.

I find it particularly interesting that you made the distinction that once you had departed from the tradition, you recognized the need for true relationship. Profound at the minimum... What I have recently learned is that relationship is the exit from religion. In my understanding, we remain in religion until true relationship takes ahold. I am not ashamed to admit it has taken my whole walk (I am 44 years old and I have believe my whole life) to come to this simple truth. The impact has been dramatic.

Well, once you truly understand relationship, it is hard to believe in a Dante's Inferno because it is a direct contradiction. The two are mutally exclusive.

Likewise, I have posted a few times about the heretical traditional heaven also. I have thrown down my jewels and treasures to know Him. I want to understand this aspect as well, but unforetunately I have discovered it is quite infinite to the human way of thinking. Argh!

So I will say something here that should rock you.

We all generally believe we were in Christ in Heaven before the foundations of the world. Then, for some strange reason, God took us out of heaven and sent us to earth. For what reason? So we could be tried and risk losing our souls in hell forever of course! No seriously, in this context, it is clear that eternal damnation by fire is out of the question.

It is that we are being brought to a new country. A new heaven if you will. And the perception of that new place comes in many forms, visions, visitations, dreams, etc. All of which point the reality of the new heaven, even if we are still a ways from it.

We are travelers. We have moved from the first heaven to earth. The second heaven, which is never called out in scripture, I believe is revealed in Genesis 1:6. It is where we are today. The third heaven, where all things are revealed is revealed to us through Paul and John, just to begin with. Hell makes the 2nd heaven the main theme, and it is not. They cannot reject the hell doctrine because they are unable to see the destiny.


Good to hear from you Todd,

Here is a simple phrase, how can they know hell doesn't exist if they cannot see beyond the physical (beyond the vail)?

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding


I think it is really important to be careful NOT to say "hell does not exist". Actually it does, it is just not what religion has made it out to be. You see, most people need a hell because they have usurped the throne of God in their own hearts, and thus need a severe judgement for things that they cannot reconcile with a finite mind. They do not understand divine judgement, and thus hell is the great spiritual trash bin for all that they do not understand.

Hell exists, but only in the way of a life process that devours the flesh and gnaws away at the conscience. This is the biblical narrative.It is this way that BOTH body and soul are destroyed in hell.

When you come out and suggest that hell does not exist, you are removing most people's reason for believing. No one is going to receive that lightly. Now, I am not neglecting that the Spirit must reveal these things, but as ambassadors, we are charged with the responsibility to be wise with what we are given. I have seen too many people come out of the false doctrines of hell, only to dive headlong into some other twisted or perverted measure of grace, which also does not exist in most cases. They never grow up as a result.

I am really glad this group understands this, but to my earlier point, you have to be able to connect the dots for people or you will always get an adverse reaction. It actually got me booted from a bible study recently.. LOL


I apologize for not expanding in what context i was using the word hell in, it was in the context of what religion has made it into; "that hell" does not exist.

Yes, hell does exist, it is the place of darkness; where the absence of light is, it is the place of death; where the absence of life is, and so on ....

I hope that clears things up

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding


Enjoyed reading your responses. And I wholely agree . . .hell "does" exist . . .IN THIS WORLD with it's TRIALS AND TRIBULATION . . .but be of Good Cheer . . .he has overcome our world. My world . . .my flesh . . .he's overcome the carnal man in this world we call earth, as well as the carnality in me. The latter means more because it becomes personal there. It refines and defines me there. All the efforts I put in as I attempt to overcome my inadequacies . . .which becomes repetitive motion at best . . . it overshadows the fact that he's already overcome the very things I continue to struggle with . . .IN ME . . . amazing.

The latter means more because through that inward experience of him overcoming the man in me, it enables me to see how he's overcome the man of this earth . . .it enables me to see "through" the darkness and despair and realize it's all but a vapor that's bound to the restrictions of time and space. Does this give me a green-light to just give in to temptation? Of course not, it's a choice combined with power. "Making" the choice releases his power. Spirit controlling thoughts of the flesh. But never under my own efforts, but only when I relinquish the control within my mind can I experience the freedom and healing of the land within my own life.

And I too, like you, have had my heavens shaken and rolled back as well. I like how you worded this realm to possibly be yet another form of heaven . . .

And as for me, your ponderings pertaining to why would we leave the spirit realm of Christ, manifest in this temporary dwelling place, and then return to the spirit realm from which we were called . . .for me . . .it is in "this" heaven that we're in now that we are "complete" as we now manifest in these bodies . . .there was no mention that we existed in bodily form previous to this, but there is much said about the fact that "after" this, the day will come when these bodies of flesh will be transformed into yet another whole new body . . .I think right here and now, "this" is part of the plan as we, as spirit beings, experience natural happenings. But that could get . . .actually I think it just did . . .get way deeper than my itty bitty mind can keep up with. :/

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