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Havin' church

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1 Havin' church on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:22 pm

cross-eyed

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I had some interesting discussions with family members last week. I have a brother who travels the states with his wife to churches of every denomination where their specific ministry is to train people to be marriage counselors. As a result, he's visited some enormous churches and there's been one recently that offered him a full-time position on their staff.

When I was still pastoring, my mother had embraced what we were doing and it concerned several other of my family members because some of the things she was telling them I was preaching didn't gel with what they believed. This particular brother took it upon himself at the time to ask my mother a handful of questions pertaining to her salvation. She passed his test and he'd since left things alone. But at no point and time did any of them other than my Dad, ever have the interest to get into any discussions over "why" I see what I do, or "how" what I see can be so different from what they're seeing.

Well, last week, I posted . . .copied . . ."shared" a quote that I really liked suggesting that man's decisions are irrelevant to the power of the cross. My brother couldn't resist responding with "I wish it were that simple". I took the opportunity and ran with it and it went into a two day discussion on hell and his concern for me misleading people there . . .it really made for some great conversations. In the end, he just agreed to disagree and that was that.

Then following that, last Saturday I went to my Mom and Dad's house to winterize our camper we store there and as I was sharing with my Mom the conversation I had with my brother, it was my Dad's turn to express his concerns . . .that one went 5 hours before I finally headed out to the camper.

I do apologize for my absence from the forum though, but I just wanted to be sure Todd knows Revelators are still revelating . . .I've been on face book in some discussions there as well.

This all brings me to ask this . . .

Have any of you ever seen a correlation between the tower of Babel and the upper room???

2 Re: Havin' church on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:19 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Hi Nathan,

I think we've all been a little busy here lately with Father in our own walk with Him....I too apologize for my absence...there's just so much going on that it's hard to grasp everything that's being revealed right now...

And I don't won't to write about it in a since....before I'm sure of what I'm seeing ya know what I mean?

As far as the correlation between the TOB....and TURoom....no can't say that I have other than....The restoration of what had went array because of their "Creative Words"....

Such I believe was and is being Restored through the pouring out of His Spirit upon all flesh today....

In fact...because of the wickedness in the heart of man from the time of The Tower....(men's words corrupt as their heart) they brought forth even in that state...(Word's are a powerful tool)....even in the mouth of the wicked heart...

But now Through The Spirit of The Lord....He has been and is Restoring that which was not of Him into that which is....His promise of this can be seen very clearly in Zep. and Joel...

Joe 1:3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.
Joe 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.


Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. (Pure---His Nature)

I see this fulfilled ONLY, in The pouring out of The Spirit of Christ on the day of Pentecost...

Blessings
AJ




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

3 Re: Havin' church on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:59 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Never thought about the two together, but here is something that was shown as I thought about it .....

With the TOB it was one people with one language that became one people with many languages .... but the confusion was so men would not build for themselves ... exalt themselves in what they were capable of doing (physically/outward).

I see it (the TOB) as a prophecy (a foreshadowing) "TO" pentecost ... NOW .... one people with many languages for the purpose of building for Him  .... exalting Him with a mind and heart of what "God" is capable of doing (Spiritually/inward), a mind and heart of a Son through the finished work of Christ in us.



Last edited by J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D. on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

4 Re: Havin' church on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:01 pm

cross-eyed

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Yes, yet another picture of restoration.

In short, the tower of Babel is a symbol/pattern of what happens when men set their minds to find God on their terms.  Their logic was that heaven could be reached by brick and mortar.  And God reveals something before acting . . . Uh oh . . . now I did it . . .I went to pull up the passage that speaks to the conversation God had within himself and  . . oh boy, this is going to take longer than what I have time for . . .sigh . . .
Genesis 11
11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

In the upper room, they were all gathered together "in one accord".  The whole earth was of one language but for me, the signpost for us to recognize where things went off the rails is in the first part of the next verse . . .it reveals where they were "coming from".

They weren't facing the east, they had their backs to it.  The position of the character in the story is extremely significant.  There are two things very out of place here.  One is their backs were to the resurrection of the kingdom and secondly, they put up camp in the land of "Shinar".  It means "two rivers".  Not one river . . .one sovereign source, but two . . .divided . . .like the law that there was to be only one high priest, yet when Jesus manifested in the flesh, there were two high priests in operation.  It's always the subtle things.

Oh man . . .I gotta go.  Probably won't be back until Saturday . . .tongue

For the record, I wrote this at the same time Jugghead was writing his . . .we're seeing much of the same thing!!

5 Re: Havin' church on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:48 pm

cross-eyed

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Carrying over from the last post . . . it occurred to me, if they were coming "from" the east, why then isn't there any evidence in their nature reflecting where they came "from". But then is also occurred to me, "that's" why the story starts out by telling us they were all of one language . . .they all had the same tongue. "That's" the evidence of living in the "east". It's a realm of resurrection, an ascended place, but they turned from it and chose to honor God on their terms . . .the Cain mentality all over again.

God has an order he's already established us in, but our minds are not of that order. Our mind prefers a "self" order to which it has full control, rather than submission to God's order. Even though God's order is the only one that induces life, it doesn't matter because walking in life is not a priority to the mind of man. It prefers knowledge over life, that was proven in the garden from the beginning.

This story begins with unity . . .one language in the entire earth because those walking on the earth had their origin in the garden . . .in the EAST of Eden. But these guys followed the ways of their father Adam in that they journeyed "from" the east. They left the ascended place that God had created for them and the first thing they did was . .. they "divided" themselves apart from God's original order.

They relied on their natural minds to build brick and mortar with their natural hands, even though God was their goal . . .sounds a lot like how religion works to this very day.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.


Hmmm . . .using fire to make bricks to build themselves a pathway into the kingdom. Fire is to consume carnality from within us to perfect us into the image of God himself. Yet instead of this fire perfecting, purging and purifying, it's manipulated to enable their self-interest to be accomplished. That sounds a lot like religion as well. Using spiritual capabilities to enhance natural means.

And of course is it any wonder that their goal was to make a name for THEMSELVES. They didn't want to fill the earth and multiply at all. They didn't want to honor God's name, they wanted to create their own name. This has got Lucifer written all over it as well. They want to raise themselves up in the heavens with God. They weren't trying to reach God, or embrace God, they were trying to be "as" God. I may have to revisit this verse, I think it's a centerpiece of their undoing that may come up later on.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.


God came DOWN to see what MEN had built. How can people have eyes but not see? Because they've stepped "down" from where pure vision resides. Perhaps rather than saying they've stepped down, it may be more accurate to say they've never been willing to let their spirit be resurrected up.

It is in verse 6 that originally sparked this conversation to begin with. This was where I was heading when I sat down to share out what has been revealed in me of how this correlates to the upper room. God's response to what he saw reveals yet another truth that originated in the garden. It is what has caused so many believers to be swayed by the physical manifestations of what they've BEEN TAUGHT to be a spiritual phenomenon by labeling it as demonic or satanic.

It always has stumped me as to why God would be so concerned with mere mortals being like-minded. The concern was not that they would successfully build a tower to which they would then honor themselves at their own accomplishment. But it was that if they were left unchecked, there was nothing THEIR IMAGINATIONS couldn't accomplish. Why? Because even though they left their origin, the power "of" their origin was still in them.

In other words, they were again, taking spiritual order and morphing it into natural means for their personal gain. It's the same exact thing as the sons of God sleeping with the daughters of men . . .it brought forth giants.

Mixing spiritual truth with natural reasoning never achieves the intent of the individual.

Same as what Paul said about fresh water and salt water never pours from the same source.` The mind of man can not see the heart of God. It can only see within the limitations of this realm. But the kingdom of heaven is "in" us and we have the unique ability to live in the realm of death while walking in the spirit of life. The trouble begins when we think we can enter into life through manipulating the principles of life through natural means. Using mental reasoning to enter into the spiritual kingdom.

These guys had the garden of Eden in them with all it's wonderful power and order. But the moment they turned from the east, they left the order that gave them that power. But they were still of the same tongue . . .they still had the power, but were no longer walking in the order . . .something had to give.

But this story isn't just an isolated event . .. this is a pattern between mankind and the Father. All through the old Testament they carried the law that was the bridge from death to life, but it held them captive due to their manipulative desires to please themselves rather than live for the Father . . .which technically is impossible as well, but that's a whole other book. The priests of the old covenant abused their positions to gain personal power from those they held captive by enforcing the law. There was no unity, no order, no alignment, just a hunger for power that couldn't be obtained through natural means, yet that's all they would embrace. . . until . . .

And that's when the upper room comes into this picture. Remember when Peter denied Christ three times (number of resurrection . .for me anyway . .) and afterwards Jesus asked Peter if he loved him three times? It's all about restoration. God leaves nothing undone when it comes to relationship between Him and His beloved. The upper room, as we mentioned before has similarities and it has subtle differences.

Similar in that it also is an ascended place.
Different in that those attended in the New Covenant, came by way of invitation and instruction rather than personal motivation like those in the Old Covenant did.
Similar in that they were all in ONE ACCORD, they were all gathered together for the same purpose. But it wasn't to build their own elevation, but to submit to the foundation that Christ had already built.

And the thing that brings it all together is the language . . .the tongue that brings both life and death. Unity and division . . .clarity and confusion . . this realm was created with the elements of creativity in the very air we breathe. It responds to our tones and words and unfortunately, without us even realizing just how much what we say and how we say it affects everything in our bubbles.

What happened in the upper room was more than just a rush of goose bumps and hallelujahs . . . it was a realigning, it was an enablement to once again manifest spiritual power through natural beings walking/returning to spiritual order. Thousands responded to Peter's tongue that day, thousands of people found themselves being realigned to God's original order of life. A whole other movement set apart from all others was birthed that day and it's never ceased. It's taken on many different forms through many different cultures and many different nations, but the power is always the same when the true "Word" is released into the atmosphere.

It's more than religious mass hysteria, it's true inner transformation beyond the reaches of natural understanding to the point that even those that it happens to can't find the natural words to explain exactly what it is that just happened. Spiritual order is returning to spiritual beings and the natural mind wants to kill it because it can't comprehend it . . .if you can't comprehend it, you can't control it. Let freedom ring!!!

6 Re: Havin' church on Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:54 pm

cross-eyed

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This vein of thinking has been sticking with me for the last couple days . . .stewing a bit . . . today, there seems to have been another room attached to this one that I've not entered before but it's a room that many have talked about in the past, some have even built their identity around it . . .demons . . .satan's worker bees . . .evil spirits hiding around the corner just waiting for an opportune moment when they can attack and possess us.

The way the church has projected this image, one would wonder why the church doesn't just have that in their arsenal of doctrines. "You must be born again AND delivered from the demons that have possessed you" because we all know that if Christ isn't in you, then satan is and if satan is in you, so then are his mutants. But, strangely, they don't believe every unbeliever needs to be exorcised.

But for me, the devils being cast out are not evil spirits as much as it is a misalignment between what is natural and what is spiritual in us. Did it ever occur to anyone how the Holy Spirit can speak to our spirit but demons, who are spirits as well, can't communicate without having to use an audible tongue? I believe it has more to do with a breakdown between our mind and spirit. The mind of man versus the spirit of God. We all, as individuals have both. Our natural mind is connected to the things below and our spirit is connected to things above. And our spirit is to be the Lord of our temples within us. And when it isn't, then all hell breaks loose and our minds become our worst enemy.

So when His Light does begin to shine in and through us, there can be a manifestation of that which is broken. The one thing I "will" agree with in traditional teachings, they say the reason a demon manifests is because he's loosing his control within us and he's about to come out. It's just that for me, it's not a demonic issue, but instead it's a control issue. Our mind desires after our spirit . . .it wants control over our identity, to the point to where it will destroy us before it will give up the throne in us.

What does this have to do with the tower of Babel? It's the same verse that stumped me.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which THEY HAVE IMAGINED to do

Every thing man has touched, they have perverted because they let their imagination literally get the best of them. It all begins IN THE MIND. This whole demon thing is a scheme of the religious to induce fear and intimidation, it's been in the church system for so long it's no longer recognized as an infiltration. False doctrines come from the same source, the mind of man. And it was already evident to the authors of the New Testament of what was infiltrating in the church way back then. What we have now is the result of an infiltrated church. But it can't be recognized until it's no longer embraced.

Mark 5
And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Luke 8
35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

36 They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.


I added verse 36 because I found it interesting that it didn't say the guy was delivered or freed, but that he was healed. The alignment in him that was broken had been restored. A restoration of the alignment has the same appearance as demonic deliverance. But demonism has been so ingrained in our thinking that we aren't willing to let it go.

But for me, if demons exist as tradition sees them, then that also means satan exists as the church sees him as well . . .and the latter is more obvious to be untrue than the former, but all the same, I believe traditional perspective is scewed either way.

7 Re: Havin' church on Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:27 am

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Very good Nathan ....

To put it in a nutshell, a carnal mind thinks .... if its understanding is increased, its status is being increased, thereby it places itself above.

This is day two in Genesis and why God does not say it was good.

We are to understand that there are things above and that there are things below but it is never to be used to elevate ourselves.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

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