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1Face Book Flyin' Empty Face Book Flyin' on Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:05 pm


It's so much fun to get into a clarification discussion on where God has us. It's like . . .as we explain what we see, "in" that process of explaining, he takes us higher than we were before we started explaining!! This is a LOOONG post at this point, but it's a conversation I've have over the last couple days with a couple gentlemen. The one who originated it kind of wrote things that made it hard for me to follow . . .perhaps his writing style . . but after that . . .it was easy, peasy, cotton cheesy!!

Original post . . .
Michael Hardin
(16) Demythologizing the satan

I have noticed that the greatest difficulty people seem to be having with these posts on the satan concerns the depersonalization of the satan. For some reason people feel the need to hang onto a personal devil. If, as I have argued, that Genesis 3-4 belong together as a process describing the descent of humanity into the madness of sacrificial religion and if Paul is making this connection between Adam and Cain in Romans 7 the big question is is there any other biblical text that makes this connection explicit. Yes there is. It comes from the Fourth Gospel where Jesus says “From the start he was a murderer, and he has never stood by the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he is speaking in character; because he is a liar- indeed, the inventor of the lie!” (John 8:44 CJB). Even though the satan (or the serpent) does not make an appearance in Genesis 4, Jesus connects what occurs there with what has happened in Genesis 3.

Paul in Romans 7 has done the same thing by turning the conversation over to the problem of Adamic humanity. We saw that he does this without reference to the satan, especially the ‘personal devil’ of the Henochic myth. That is, both Paul and the writer of the Fourth Gospel anthropologize the satan; the satanic is a human phenomenon. We have been following this cue for the last several posts. To demythologize the devil is one of the most difficult things Christians must do for one big reason.

Most Christians have a view of the person as an autonomous individual. I have argued that Rene Girard’s notion of persons as ‘interdividual’ is an essential move from modernity to a postmodern understanding of humanity. This is not a recent shift in the human sciences but one that has been occurring for almost a hundred years in others disciplines like psychology, philosophy and literary theory. It has been confirmed by the hard science of neurophysiology. Thus, those who would see evil as coming from a ‘free moral agent’, as stemming from choice, fail to recognize the deeply embedded situation we humans are in when it comes to the problem of mediated desire (or object oriented desire).

Confirmation of this can be found in the Passion Narrative of Luke 23. Most of us would tend to think that Caiaphas, the religious authorities and Pilate ‘made the choice’ to execute Jesus. If there is any text in which deception and murder occur it is here in the trial and execution of Jesus. Yet, Jesus says from the cross that “they don’t know what they are doing” (Lk 23:32, admittedly a textual variant). Girard observes that this is the first literary allusion to the non-conscious. Jesus does not ascribe intent to his persecutors. Nor does he invoke their decision to execute him to the following of a Henochic devil. His saying underscores that “they” do not know what they are doing. He sees the deception and murder as stemming from “them” and them alone. Genesis 4 and all the other murders and victimizations found in the Jewish Bible are reenacted here center stage in the Passion story for all to see. Not once, in any Passion Narrative is the concept of a personal satan invoked (John 13:27 is altogether a different question and at any rate not part of the Passion narrative).

James explores this connection between desire, sin and death in his epistle: “No one who is tested should say, "God is tempting me!" This is because God is not tempted by any form of evil, nor does he tempt anyone. 14 Everyone is tempted by their own cravings; they are lured away and enticed by them. 15 Once those cravings conceive, they give birth to sin; and when sin grows up, it gives birth to death. (Jam 1:13-14 CEB) Notice here that James does not invoke a personal devil or some version of the Enoch myth. Rather evil arises purely from within the human.

Those who insist on a personal devil need to make several critical changes in their thinking: first in their anthropology, their definition of person, second, in the way they had previously related evil to conscious choice, third, to an understanding of evil grounded in mimetic desire and fourth to see the connection between the deception of evil and its flowering in violence, death and scapegoating. Until they do, they will not ever be able to explain evil; they will simply be stuck on the merry go round of theodicy, trying to justify a god who would make a devil in the first place.

Jack Young
What about that guy named "Lucifer"? and what about what Job witnessed?

Nathan Loehr
For me . . .the fact that "Lucifer" is only in scripture ONE TIME is a bit pretentious to build any theology of him being the devil. And two, if you read the context, Scripture calls him a "man". And three . . .every comparison the author there uses matches up with the original Adam to a "T". For me . . .Lucifer is both Adam the man, and Adam the race.

Jack Young
??? It says there was a literal war in heaven where Lucifer, the most beautiful angel of all, and god's right hand man, rebelled because he knew he was so amazing he wanted to posess the athurity that he had. It says he fell like lightning from the sky, and that a literal 1/3 of the angels fell with him. If Satan is merely symbolic, then are we going to assume that demons and fallen angels are as well? If so, lets hope you get abducted by a UFO, and then we shall see.

Nathan Loehr
Isaiah 14
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

(Sermon #1)
Since we want to be literal . . .have you ever heard a fir tree rejoice or rebuke? Hell stirs up the dead . . .literally? How does that work? So all hell is rising up and at the same time mighty people of the earth stand up from their thrones . . .literally?? When did that happen? Surely there are other books in Scripture that support that. And again as I mentioned there in verse 16 . . .Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble?? Your doctrine seems to claim the best of both worlds . . .satan is a spirit, a fallen angel in heaven because apparently what God set up had a leak in it. And satan is a man.

There is no mention of a war in heaven and satan being thrown out as a fallen angel. That came from . . .or part of your claim, came from Jesus . . .who it's already been establish ALWAYS spoke in PARABLES that those who took everything he said literally were always perplexed by what he was saying.

Types and shadows . .. there is some reality to it, but the true message is beyond the surface of what's being said. Walking in the spirit isn't a suggestion, it's a command because as we let go of what is literal, a whole other realm of truths emerge in our midst. The original definition for satan is merely adversary. And that's what Paul says our mind is . . .

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

He even reaches all the way back to Genesis and uses the same language as what the relationship was between Eve and the serpent. The serpent being the devil, being satan, being the dragon . . .all are carnality. That's why Jesus called Peter satan . . .not because he just became possessed, but because even though his name was changed from Simon to Peter, indicating a change in his nature . . .he hadn't fully matured into that pronouncement and was still being influenced by the carnality within him . . .thus making him an ADVERSARY against why Jesus was here in the first place. So Jesus pointed that out.

To make satan "God's right-hand man" is to give satan way more power than what even exists. The only thing that gives the serpent the power to grow into a dragon is the carnal mind of men ALLOWING it to do so. The more I feed my flesh, the greater hold my flesh has on me. That's the pattern of life on earth. But it's a pattern that Christ did away with on the cross. And now, there is no place found in the kingdom for satan . . .where is the kingdom? It's within us all. Satan (carnality) has been delivered from us. So when we walk in the spirit, we experience that freedom . . .but when we rely on our own reason, we remain bound to the carnal influence.

Michael Hardin
Quoting Jack Young: "It says there was a literal war in heaven where Lucifer, the most beautiful angel of all, and god's right hand man, rebelled because he knew he was so amazing he wanted to posess the athurity that he had. It says he fell like lightning from the sky, and that a literal 1/3 of the angels fell with him."

You are referencing I Enoch, for this is not in the canonical documents.

Nathan Loehr For me, it really doesn't matter if it's in Enoch or Matthew, I embrace the Bible for what it is, an affirmation to the Word speaking within me. It's not what I used to build a doctrine, I did that and all I accomplished was a lot of religion that needed to be removed due to my efforts to blend my reasoning with spiritual truths . . . I was a literalist for most of my life as well and as far as I knew, it was all right there in black and white and I was actually dismayed that others couldn't see it there in plain english. Then as my relationship with the Father matured, I began realizing that all those years of assuming things literally, I was the one with eyes, but couldn't actually "see".

And now, like I mentioned before, there "is" SOME truth to what appears there . . .there really was an Adam, an Eve, a David, a Goliath . . .but the message they lived was one of a deeper venue than just embracing the literal depiction of them. When I saw Adam and Eve as a pattern of my spirit and soul and satan being the carnality that can deceive my mind but my spirit has dominion over both my Eve and satan, life began to flow out of me in so many ways.

Freedom began to manifest where conformity once reigned. I began to see the real gospel that Paul and others preached instead of the tainted version that had been ingrained in me. That included satan, Lucifer, hell . .the rapture . . .everything changed. Satan, Lucifer, and hell, if you take a step back and seriously think about it, all of it is based on fear tactics.

But on the other end, perfect love casts out all fear. So for me, something had to give, so I let go of the fear and it only led me into more and more freedom of Christ in me. All condemnation is truly removed. Disagreements are accepted rather than attempted to be controled because I do realize that we all have the kingdom within us and we all have different personalities, so of course, the kingdom of heaven is going to manifest differently in everyone of us.

It's okay if people want to believe in hell or satan or Lucifer in a literal sense . . . I'm merely suggesting that there's so much more to it than just embracing the literal aspects. Everything is a pattern for something deeper . . .something higher . . .something greater. The keys to understanding come through faith, not facts. Facts only apply to this realm, when we enter into spiritual matters, our minds can't comprehend because our minds rely on facts. The only fact that truly applies is, everything is actually based on faith.

Believing in what can't be seen, accepting what can't be understood. Totally illogical . . .the first step to enter into the kingdom.

Jack Young
Nathan, comparing symbolism like "the trees will dance and clap hands" because the whole earth will be so pleased with heaven here, to "Lucifer fell from heaven like lightening" is like apples and oranges. Clearly.

Jack Young
Michael, it is in the Bible, I have read it, bro

Jack Young
You don't have to be a religious asshole just because you take Satan to be a literal figure, guys. (I apologize for the language . . .he seems a bit coarse in his delivery)

Jack Young
If Satan is just symbolic, then you must also assume that demons and angels are symbolic as well, no? But they are not. Too many people have had genuine experiences and encoutners with them for it to be symbology

Michael Thompson
(Quoting Jack again) "and that a literal 1/3 of the angels fell with him" Jack show be anywhere in the bible that a literal 1/3 of angels fell and i will eat my hat! waiting.....

(Sermon #2)
Nathan Loehr
For one Jack, no one is implying you're a religious -- because you see it differently . . . I thought my last post nailed that portion about embracing differences rather than trying to control them, apparently not. I apologize for the confusion.

Secondly, the idea that Satan was once an angel of light contradicts with what Jesus says of satan. He said he was not only the father of lies, but he was a liar FROM THE BEGINNING. How can he be an angel of light; aka light bearer, which is the original definition of Lucifer, aka son of the morning . . .and it's already established that Jesus is the morning star so satan would then be directly connected to Jesus as well??? How can he have his origin as a godly angel if he was evil from the beginning??

As to the symbolism . . . if you read up on types and shadows referred to in Hebrews, you'd understand that everything in there is virtually a parable that has multiple levels of truths to it. We are three-dimensional beings as we have a body inhabited by a spirit as evidenced through our soul .. . Just as God is mulit-dimensional with many many levels but there is a common denominator of "three" in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Just as the tabernacle, which was a type and shadow of Christ also has three dimensions in the outer court, inner court or holy place and then the holy of holies. It's all a progressional experience. I believe Scripture is exactly the same way.

There is the literal rendering . . .1st dimension
The moral application . . . . 2nd dimension
And the spiritual experince . . . 3rd dimension.

And given the fact that we're to walk in the spirit and not the flesh, I pursue the 3rd dimension as opposed to relying on the 1st diimension. All are connected, but only one induces lilfe that is the abundant life Jesus referred to.

It's a graduation of relationship that enables us to let go of one level and enter into the next. But if we resist, then we disable ourselves from seeing what can't be seen.

If everything Jesus said was in parables, why is it difficult to accept that the written Word would follow the same pattern . . .he "is" the volume of the book. He IS the Word.

When we start to divide what is spiritual/symbolic and what is not, we open ourselves to error because we're not the ones that are to do the "rightly dividing". That is the role of the Sword of the Spirit in us. It divides bone from marrow, spirit from flesh. Our minds don't have that capablity, which is again why our mind is always at enmity against God . . .God is everything spiritual and our mind is everything literal/natural. The only way I can enter into the kingdom of heaven is to lay down everything I think I know . . .come to him as a child . . .innocent of knowledge . . .and let the spirit reveal personally the truths that Paul speaks of and calls them mysteries . . .

Then we can see that satan is the carnality in us and in this realm. The demons . . .I to have had personal experiences on both sides of the coin on this one and regardless of what my mind was convinced of, for me, demons are manifestations of a subconscious misalignment in people . . .the guy who had what we were taught to be a legion of demons in him . . .read the story, at the end, the last thing it says about him was that he was of a SOUND MIND . . .

I don't expect you to understand everything I'm sharing . . . I celebrate with you if you do, but I'm not offended if you don't. Much of what I'm sharing, I came through years of experiences of my own in my own personal relationship with the Father. These things don't usually become clear overnight. It all depends on how willing we are to let go of what we think we already know.

Nathan Loehr
To the post Michael Thompson made . . .I've come this far, I may as well go all the way with it and share with you that for me, as I mentioned the dimension of threes . . .in this one, it's the third of the God-head . . . who "became sin" . . .the original text never used the word "angels" it was "messengers". I do believe there is a host of spiritual beings that operate in the heavenlies, but I also believe there are a host of spiritual beings on this earth doing the the same thing . . .being messengers. Jesus came with a message of redemption . . .he was struck down . . .as was his message.

But . . . there is NOTHING in this realm that is greater than the Originator of all things. The message isn't about who fell, it's about who resurrected. It's not about the existence of demons or satan, it's about one who redeemed all men back to the Father, in spite of man's inability to acknowledge that, it doesn't discredit the fact that it's already been done. The rest is merely a distraction from that truth.

Michael Thompson
Nathan Loehr So I was wrong then, a third of the angelic, or spiritual beings really did fall according to scripture?

(When I read that one ... I felt the direction of everything changed a bit as he came hungry and open . . .two of my most favorite things!!)

Nathan Loehr
For me, not in the literal sense . . .but again, "messengers" the focus is more on the message that was brought down than literal angels . . . Death, burial, resurrection . . .peace, hope and love, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob . . .on the third day Christ resurrected from the dead . .. on the third day the church will resurrect as well . . .it's been two days since he prophesied this, we are at the dawning of the third day. I believe the reason why there's a stirring of people looking past the church for answers is due to this very passage. The Father is calling out those in bondage to bring us all into the freedom of his redemptive grace.

The third in heaven that fell was the planting of the seed of life in the earth for resurrection to take place no only in the earth, but in all of us. We are connected to the earth and it's connected to us . . .we were created from it's essence . . .or these bodies of flesh were anyway.

This story also has even a personal meaning to every one of us . . .I am the combination of spirit, soul and body . . .one third of that must come down in order for resurrection to manifest in me as a whole . . . that's why I say focusing on the 1st dimension of Scripture can really distract us from the truths about who we are and how we operate that lie beneath the surface of what's been written.

Michael Thompson
Nathan Loehr, could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by faith being illogical and the first step to the kingdom? thanks

(Sermon #3)
Nathan Loehr
When I first came into this room/realm of God . . . my understanding of what faith is was . . . redefined. Have you ever asked someone what faith is? Every time I did, the answer would always be the same . . . they would quote the verse that says what faith is. But what I found was, they were saying the words without a bond between the words and their understanding.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Sounds simple enough . . . but if it's that simple, then how does it become so distorted? The "name it, claim it" movement really did more damage than good with their interpretation of what faith is all about. It's not about seeing what you "want" and then taking action to accomplish your wants.

It's a personal experience that we each must go through in our own relationship with the Father. So many people have based their view of God on what they've read in Scripture. Faith isn't about what Scripture says . . .want we don't realize is as we read Scripture, our mind is in control of what images we perceive. We read Scripture "first" then after there's an image that emerges of what we think it says, we worship the image. But that's backwards to how faith works.

Faith first comes by hearing . . . not hearing someone read the Bible, but HEARING as in "He that hath an ear, let him hear" The word comes to us inwardly first and foremost. The word creates the image inside us first, then Scripture affirms that word. God uses the word to energize our faith which places us in his ascended rooms . . . it's not a coincidence that it was an "upper room" that Jesus poured out his spirit upon all flesh. That's another pattern.

When a person steps out in faith to act . . .he's the only one that has already seen the finished results. No one else has seen it because it hasn't happened yet. His actions are illogical because he's operating as though the matter is already resolved yet everyone else is in chaos because IN THIS REALM it's not complete yet.

The prayer that we call "The Lord's prayer" which really isn't but that's another sermon. But the phrase that says "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth . . . .AS IT IS in heaven. That's a prayer of faith . . .that's a prayer to iniate faith to manifest. Everything is already finished in the spirit, but only those walking in the spirit can see the completion . . only those walking in the spirit have the ability to see the FINISHED STATE. Everyone else continues to be influence and reactive to this CURRENT STATE.

Fear thrives in the current state because a person can't see what's going to happen so they generally think the worst. Walking in faith, there is no fear because even though our natural eyes can't see what's yet to happen, the spirit in us already knows and as such, we are enabled to walk in peace through the storms of life.

My logic and reason can not see tomorrow. So when people start acting as though something's already happened that obviously hasn't, it contradicts with our logic. Thus, what they say and do makes no sense because they are walking in faith through the spriit and I'm still stumbling around relying on my intellect.

Natural logic and reason definitely has it's place. Without it we'd never survive in this realm. But the church missed this piece entirely when they try to enter into the things of God. There needs to be a shifting of gears within us when we pursue the kingdom. Our mind MUST go from operation to "observation". We watch what God is doing and we let his spirit lead.

Remember what Jesus said? In Matthew 19 and 20 he was elaborating on how the kingdom operated when he said the last will be first and the first will be last. The greatest will be the least and the least will be the greatest.

For me, that means . . .the kingdom of God operates OPPOSITE of how the kingdom of the earth operates. That's why, for me, we're told to lean NOT on our own understanding . . .everyting is based on faith.

To me, faith is believing in what can't be seen, accepting what can't be understood. Like the order of how we are born, it starts with a RELATIONSHIP between a MAN (spirit in me) and a WOMAN (soul in me) and only one of them carries the seed of life. And ONE of them MUST submit to allow the seed to be released in the womb (mind). If there is no submission . . .it's considered to be spiritual rape and I believe many of our beloved churches do this on a regular weekly basis.

Hearing the Word of the Spirit in me is the seed that impregnates my nature . . .it takes on a life of it's own without me doing anything other than living my life. It starts to expand in me, it pushes my insides all over the place. I start walking funny (spiritually speaking of course) I crave for things I never wanted before . . .I get morning sickness I eat foods I normally do but now my body rejects them . . .why? Because there's a life planted within me that is preparing to birth through me . . .my identity will change when it does. But it all began with relaitionship . . intimacy with the Father. Religion does just the opposite . . there is no freedom birthing through us, only more bondages.

Michael Thompson
Thanks Nathan Loehr ! Do you think faith is a choice? I feel like I was left out of the faith boat, I cannot seem to trust and believe in god. I have pretty much left christianity, though i would still like to hope in a good god, and want to imitate Jesus to become a more loving being. I go with a modified form of pacals wager. I believe in a good god, if I am right and there is a good god, I gain much, if i am wrong and there is no god, I still gain, because believing in a good god still gave me some hope and made me a more loving being. If I am wrong and there is a different god who does evil, well then I shouldnt believe in it anyways, it is not worthy of my trust.

(Sermon #4)
Nathan Loehr
Everyone is given a "measure" of faith AND faith comes by HEARING the Word. So . . . when you put them together, it tells me that God speaks to EVERYONE on one level or another. The Word you're hearing is what is "in" you, which is also where the kingdom of heaven is at . . .you are hearing voices from the kingdom. You have faith, but you're not fully identifying with it yet.

What you just wrote is a profession of what you believe . . .your "faith". So it's not that you don't have "any" faith in God, what you have is what God has given you and because it doesn't seem to line up with what the religious crowd has claimed, it's made you very cautious. I could be wrong but that's kinda what it appears to be to me.

Is faith a choice? I believe faith is your response to what you're hearing. Disbelief is a form of faith as well. Worry is a form of faith . . .I call that "dark" faith because there's no life in the process of worry, only sickness and death. . . .spiritually and literally.

When you left Christianity, you walked away from religious idol worship. The church has an "image" of what they think God is and that's what they worship and woe unto anyone who would dare to question the continuity of their creed. But the truth is, the image they have of God and the true nature of God are fathoms apart. The voice in you has led you out of religious bondage . . .that's the voice of the kingdom again.

Kingdom truth comes through birthing . . .birthing comes through intimacy in relationship. Religion comes through learning and adopting . . .there's no birthing, only adopting. Huge difference. Intimacy in relationship with God doesn't mean we're to be heavily disciplined in all kinds of religious activity . . .reading the bible by the hours, having communion once a week . . .praying until you bruise your knees . . .it's not about self discipline, it's about simple submission.

Brace yourself, I'm going to set off a little bomb here . . .but the truth is . . .(huge breath!!) It's impossible to follow Jesus. (gasp!!) And frankly, I don't think when Jesus said "follow me" he meant we were to try in OUR OWN EFFORTS to imitate him. Instead . . .I just LET him live in me. When I hear a voice in me to either tone my personality down or turn it up . . . I want to yeild to that voice . . ."let" him lead me into his way of living my life.

I believe all of the examples we see in Scripture . . .and even what appears to be instructions, are merely expressions of those who've already been transformed within and their actions on the outside reflect the change on the inside. But the church has it backwards in claiming we must discipline ourselves on the outside to match up with how Jesus would live but unless Jesus has transformed you on the inside, there's no way in hell on this earth that we'll ever accomplish being holy.

Law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin. I don't believe God ever intended for us to be so worried about getting dirty in this realm. I don't think God is nearly as interested in the sin in our lives as much as the church is. Either Jesus paid that price once and for all or he didn't. I think God is more interested in us SEEING him than he is in us trying to copy him.

Michael Thompson
Cool! Nathan,Ilike what you are saying, not that I totally understand it, but thats ok too. I should have been a little more clear, I do have a little faith, if I had none, i wouldnt even be interested in discussing it What I lack may be assurance. After so many years of looking for god in the religion of christi-insanity I got so conditioned to see god separate for us and the universe, etc. that though i now agree that god is within us and all things it still seems pretty foreign to me to think that way and it feels like we are just alone. I got to just trust god knows best, seems odd though i love nature she seems cruel sometimes, like I have arthritis in my hips would like to go out more, but I seem to be spending more time online i dont like to move much. but I do get to meet interesting people and their expressions of faith, like you, so tis not all bad...

Nathan Loehr
Ha! Thanks for that. God "is" in this realm . . .you're finding him all over your internet. Maybe he put a crimp in your walk to get you to sit down and find him???

And as to the cruelty of nature . . .she's not to blame . . .and by the way, neither is God. He's not in control of this realm as so many have claimed. If he were, I'm pretty sure the travesties of our history never would have happened.

No, I believe he gave the dominion of this earth over us man and "this" is the result of man's inability to exercise the heavenly powers we've been equipped to exercise. Which brings us back to "faith". Seeing what he's already accomplished in his realm and calling it out into ours . . .that's the purpose of having faith, that we exercise the power that comes with it.

I see God realigning some framework in you . . . that's a good thing, and for your hip, that's a great thing because healing has come with his embrace in your life. I don't mean to sound corny and I seldom say things of this nature, but I do sense that God truly is touching your physical hip to heal your walk both naturally and spiritually. That's what I see so I gotta call it out!!

Michael Thompson
Lol! I hope you are right! glass half full

Michael Thompson
Seems a little odd to blame man for how nature works when we have been on the scene for such a short while! maybe nature isnt really cruel either, it is just how we see into it?

Nathan Loehr
Well . . .now that you brought it up . . .for me, this earth was first created in complete harmony . . . every animal was a vegetarian . . .lions ate grass right along with the cows . .. in the garden, dominion over this earth was given to Adam. But when Adam received from his Eve fruit from the tree of knowledge, that changed everything . . .including the earth and everything on it.

Even in the New Testament it talks about how the earth groans . . . it's still under the curse. And the manifestation that the curse is nearing the end? The emerging of the sons of God .. . those whom God is calling out from our bondages into the freedom of his redemption. Our mere existence can actually bring restoration to this earth . . . hard to imagine with our feeble minds.

Michael Thompson
oh no! garden of eden, really? please say you are joking

Nathan Loehr
Another TIP OF THE ICEBURG topic, I know . . .

Michael Thompson that was the first thing that made me grow suspicious of religion, this busness of creationism and that it is totally conflicting of how the world and natural history happened

Michael Thompson pulled that card, and the whole house eventually came down, so in a sense, people like ken ham, etc are right, seeing the long ages of natural history and evolution can be fatal to many christian beliefs

Nathan Loehr
I personally think they actually coincide with each other. Scripture just doesn't give the details of "how" things came to be and science has the aftermath . . . but if you think about it .. .with all the thundering, lightening and earth quaking going on in the Book of Revelation which is pertaining to the "end" of things . . . I gotta think there were a few BIG BANGS at the beginning . . .if you know what I mean

Michael Thompson
could be, i dont even know if their was a begining, just change maybe

Michael Thompson
I do disagree with the writer of genesis if he really thinks carnivores ate grass and only turned into predators because man ate of a forbidden tree, if that is even what was meant.

Nathan Loehr
Remember....this was never intended to be a history book when we cross over into the spiritual land we have to lay down the facts and embrace the faith. my relationship with God is not based on what it says in Genesis about how things began, I'm not looking for proof I'm looking for freedom

Michael Thompson
ok I am totaly lost on where you are coming

Michael Thompson
what are facts? stating that we have to lay down fact to embrace faith, is that a fact? I em a bit concerned we are venturing into contradiction here, maybe getting too far down the rabbit hole, maybe not, I dont know lol

Nathan Loehr
Lol....this is what I mean when I am talking about reading scripture dimensionally. trying to define a spiritual relationship based on a historical truth is like putting new wine into old wineskins. I see the mind like the old wineskins it cannot contain a new and living truth. rejecting God because the science of my mentality doesn't match up is kinda missing the point.the message of Scripture is a bout 3 people it's about the relationship between God and the first adam and a second Adam redeeming the first back to God. proving how many years we've been here doesn't really lead me into any spiritual understanding

Nathan Loehr
I personally wonder if God didn't purposely put dinosaurs on this earth to throw us off from the facts so that we would not rely on proof to build our faith.

Michael Thompson
right, maybe I am too addicted to reason to see the spiritual now, I have been burned before by abandoning it, so i am less likely to now. If god is all love, i am sure he or she understands though

Nathan Loehr
It is a process...hardest thing for us to do is listen to our heart and not our head. That's what the crown of thorns was all about. Jesus took the cursed mind with him.

Michael Thompson
yeah, hard epecially when i dont know the difference are you sure they are two different things?

Nathan Loehr Oh yeah....huge difference. Only one of them leads to life.

Michael Thompson
yeah i am quite conflicted! My heart wants to live, but my mind knows I am gonna die lol could be god, but it also could be the inner urge brought about as a survival instinct through evolution too, or maybe both are true haha

Nathan Loehr
All death really is, is the passing from this realm to another . . .there is no end. Which is another nail in the hell theory . . .the truth is, eternity is our destiny . . .religion believes you could spend it either in heaven or hell . . .but the truth? The moment we were originally created, we were destined to live forever . . .but these temporary bodies are only a stepping stone . . .remember what I said about seeing the finished state and not the current state? That would be where this piece fits in as well. Only my "self" would be fearful of death . . .because it can't "see" beyond this realm. Let it go man . . . the purpose for salvation is not so we go to heaven in the end, but so we can experience the benefits of life in this realm of death . . .NOW. There is no fear of death in the kingdom . . .which again is where? In you!!

Michael Thompson
I believe! help thou my unbelief!

More to come, I just ran out of time.

2Face Book Flyin' Empty Continued conversation . . . on Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:48 pm


Jack Young
I don't even know what I believe anymore. My intuition is leading me in the direction of "Satan" and evil are all symbolic. But then there is the really crazy, evil, shit you sometimes see on the news that the media likes to focus on, and it makes you wonder. I just was under the impression that the bible said that one third of the angels in heaven rebelled and fell with "Satan".

(Sermon #5)

Nathan Loehr
Okay, in this last post alone . . .you just stated that inwardly, you're feeling a pull toward SEEING satan more as a carnal force than a spirit being bent on dethroning God. Yet OUTWARDLY what you see tries to argue with what you're INWARDLY hearing. The carnal mind is always at enmity against God because it doesn't have the capability to comprehend anything of it's own accord, anything that is spiritual. It needs to have proof because proof is tangible, and natural, and physical. But God is none of these.

Where the SPIRIT of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY. In the natural, everything leads to a bondage in one form or another. You can't even drink beer without the threat of becoming an alcoholic. Everything on this side of life is addictive by nature and we as humans are addictive beings by nature. So when a message of freedom appears, all we have, to try to relate to what that freedom is, is our past addictions that we didn't really break, we just traded them for other crutches and claimed we broke from it. Even an alcoholic will tell you that after 10, 20 years without taking a drink, they are still an alcoholic and all it takes is one drink to have it all collapse all over again.

That may appear to be "free" but it's so not the free INDEED that we experience in the spirit. I was addicted to my doctrines of hell, satan, Lucifer . . .the rapture . . .all of it. I got my religious drunk on every Sunday that kept me bound to the very thing that was spiritually killing me. But then God showed up. He showed up because I was looking "for" him without really understanding who he was.

I remember before this all began, I had this huge religious experience that really turned my life around at the time and it sprouted some new habits up in me. I began fasting and praying continually. I had this room at work . . .it was a relatively small room and had a machine in it that seldom ran. I liked it because it echoed and I'd go in there on my break every night and I'd just worship and play my harmonica and pray . . .and I found myself praying for something I didn't understand.

I remember even as I was praying it that I didn't know what it meant. But I also had that same inner feeling you spoke about that let me know God had put this desire in me to pray for it so just . . .pray it. You know what it was?? Intimacy. Every night, before the session was through, I'd find myself praying for intimacy with God. I had no idea what that entailed. I assumed it had to do with what I was already doing . . .strict disciplinary activity.

But I'm happy to report that personal discipline has nothing to do with spiritual intimacy at all. What is spiritual intimacy? This is really important to all who have a relationship with the Father because now I see, that intimacy is the key to unlocking the treasures of the kingdom.

For me . . .spiritual intimacy is, in the simplest terms . . .submission. When a man and woman come together, only one of them is carrying the seed of life in them. The other is merely a womb that allows the seed of life to be released into them, become a part of them and them a part of the seed and when the birthing comes, bonds are established that no man can break, identities are transformed, nothing is the same ever again. But it never would have happened if there wasn't someone submitting to another.

If I am his bride and he is the groom . . .I am the one submitting to him in spiritual intimacy. After that, personal interpretation takes a back seat to inward revelation, regardless of what the outward status is around me. If the voice within me is telling me a flood is coming even though on the outside things are in a drought, I'm going to be preparing for an ocean in the middle of the desert.

Michael Thompson
Ah I think im getting it now, its like when Jesus said walk by faith not by sight!

Jack Young
Ginko Grimes is what I always say. Either way.

(Sermon #6?)

Nathan Loehr I don't know who Ginko Grimes is . .. .

Walk by faith and not by sight . . . ABSOLUTELY . . .that's my platform from the beginning. Remove the mind, there is a place for it of course, but not when it comes to spiritual conception of the seeds of life in us. Our minds want to wrestle and argue rather than embrace and submit. Spiritual truth makes no natural sense. Somebody hits you in the face you're supposed to turn the other cheek? Whaaaaat?? Love your enemies?? What is greatest is least? Who is first is actually last???

The closest religion has come to grasping this is attempting to "act" differently so their outward actions give the appearance that they're in alignment. So we "try" to love our eneimes but deep down . .. ain't gonna happen!! We "try" to turn the other cheek . . .but inwardly we're beating the crap out of the other guy. But those who see our outside actions think we are a saint because we didn't swing back. That's not what being transformed even is.

It's hard to imagine until it happens, but did you ever think that when those gruesome soldiers beat the tar out of Jesus, not one time thorugh that whole thing did he ever "want" to retaliate. We may not retaliate, but inside we still "want" to. That's the difference between religion and relationship. Relationship literally transforms from the inside out. It changes our "want to".

The old man that needs to die in us is our stinkin' thinkin' mind. That's what is being submitted to the Father's spirit in us which then allows his seed of life to be released within us and once it does, it takes on a whole life of it's own. What is then birthed out of us is truth . . .understanding . . .life and freedom. But it all begins with laying down . . .submitting what I "think" I know so that the seed of life can be released into my mind, bringing forth "his" nature through me and not my own alone.

I still get to be me . . .I'm not a walking zombie or someone with a frozen smile on my face. IN HIM we live . . .and move . . .and HAVE OUR BEING. He still lets us be us because that's what he created . . .us. We're not broken, we're just misaligned. mind before spirit . . .for me, THAT'S what initiated the Fall of Adam. He received from his Eve when it's supposed to be the other way around. The fruit of knowledge was merely the gateway into this realm where knowledge rules.

You know in the New Testament where Paul says women are supposed to be silent in the church? well . . .get past the attempt for literal interpretation and what you'll find is, he's speaking to the woman in me. What . . .know not that YOU are a temple of the Holy Ghost? The woman in you is what needs to be silent so the man in you . . .the spirit in you can pass on the seed of life into your mind .. thus . . .as Paul states, we then have a renewing of the mind . . .but it all starts with submission in spiritual intimacy.

This can only be seen as you walk IN FAITH . . .believing in what you can't see . . .accepting what your mind can't understand. Freaks me out when I think about the infinity of it all.

Jack Young
That's okay. Ginko Grimes knows who you are

3Face Book Flyin' Empty Re: Face Book Flyin' on Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:40 pm


Has he deleted these comments? I've been reading his stuff on Facebook for the past couple weeks and I didn't see any of this conversation. ???

I'm interested how Michael responds to these Kingdom thoughts as he's quite the intellectual.

The reason I've been reading his stuff (well I happened to read another friends comment on his demythologizing satan, then I friended him) is because of the voice I've been hearing which has been pretty singular for a while now.

Sacrifice and Burnt offerings I did not desire, nor take delight in.

If God didn't desire them then who did? The mind of man? Did Moses demand the Levitical law?

Sorry if I took this off topic, but I've been meaning to ask if anyone has read any of Michael Hardin's stuff, or any non-violent (girardian) atonement stuff.

I'm reading "the Jesus driven life" right now, its pretty good. Has some interesting takes on viewing the scripture.

4Face Book Flyin' Empty Re: Face Book Flyin' on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:55 am


Jeremy1 wrote:Has he deleted these comments?  I've been reading his stuff on Facebook for the past couple weeks and I didn't see any of this conversation. ???

I'm interested how Michael responds to these Kingdom thoughts as he's quite the intellectual.  

The reason I've been reading his stuff (well I happened to read another friends comment on his demythologizing satan, then I friended him) is because of the voice I've been hearing which has been pretty singular for a while now.

Sacrifice and Burnt offerings I did not desire, nor take delight in.

If God didn't desire them then who did?  The mind of man?  Did Moses demand the Levitical law?

Sorry if I took this off topic, but I've been meaning to ask if anyone has read any of Michael Hardin's stuff, or any non-violent (girardian) atonement stuff.  

I'm reading "the Jesus driven life" right now, its pretty good.  Has some interesting takes on viewing the scripture.

For me, it is understanding this: "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

The righteous are those who have a heart of compassion, the sinners are those who have a heart of sacrifice.

The mindset of the Adam nature is of "a wanting to do" rather than "a wanting to have" (or a wanting to be given).

Sacrifice pertains to "an outside work of the body (the flesh) which can be easily rendered as self righteousness in that work.

Whereas "compassion" is an inside work of Christ in our own heart and that is because, we can easily forgive someone we love or know, but compassion is required to forgive someone we do not love or know.

Therefore, Christ in us, is the compassion of the Father that is now manifested in our heart so that forgiveness is shown through our body (flesh) towards others, hence we become the flesh (body) of Christ that is the forgiveness of the Father towards those we do not love or know.

And that is what becomes His Righteousness "in" us rather than the self-righteousness "of" the Adam nature (which was poured out at the cross).

The mind of men is "a doing" the mind of the Father (and Christ) is "a wanting", for He said "It is finished", another words, the doing is done.

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

5Face Book Flyin' Empty Re: Face Book Flyin' on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:19 pm


Hmmm . . .can wisdom really be measured at all?

For me, wisdom comes through intimacy, understanding is birthed in us through that intimacy of soul in submission to spirit, and intimacy comes through relationship. Which maintains the importance of salvation to those critics who believe that because we believe God saves all that it means you can live however you choose and still get a free ticket into heaven . . .sigh . . .

6Face Book Flyin' Empty Re: Face Book Flyin' on Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:50 pm


Nathan, I sent this to you in a PM but was not opened by you so was led to post it now.

Something came to mind this morning that made things make sense for me, but might be a little confusing in your understanding.

What I mean is body, soul and spirit .... what came to mind is: our spirit (since it is in His Kingdom) is neither male nor female.

We know that in a male (man), the mind is what is prominent ... and in a female (woman), the heart is what is prominent, so if we see that which is "in" our physical body is mind, heart and spirit .... the mind (male) and the heart (female) have to become one to give birth to His Spirit, which is neither male nor female.

I can see the soul as "our being", our thoughts (male/mind) and emotions (female/heart) ... and they come into agreement with His Spirit that has been given us, therefore putting to death the carnal "way of thinking" (the natural) in our own spirit. Since that Adam nature was put to death at the cross, it is now the Spiritual "way of thinking" that takes precedence.

Make sense?

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

7Face Book Flyin' Empty Re: Face Book Flyin' on Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:29 pm


I have always seen it body soul and spirit...Until Juggy pointed out to me that we all have a mind and a heart and a spirit, breath within us....this makes us a Living Soul..."a Being" as a whole....

This is what I have now come to understand...

In Covenant Relationship.....The Mind and The Heart must agree in order to walk together as ONE.... As it was with our Lord...


The Father-The mind of God/Male
Jesus-The Heart of God/Female
Together as ONE in agreement= The Christ of God/Covenant/Sonship

Jugghead-The male/mind
Artic-The female/heart
Together as ONE in agreement= The Christ of God/Covenant/Sonship

In me personally as an individual...

When they agree within me....they bring forth, Covenant Relationship, and Birth The Son by this Union....All this is done through His Spirit that is within me...we are ONE....

Pro 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Face Book Flyin' Infini10

The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!

8Face Book Flyin' Empty Re: Face Book Flyin' on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:43 am


Sorry Jugg . . .I never got that pm message. Wonder what happened to that?

As to what you're saying . . .the soul being our "being" . . .it's an intriguing subject that doesn't get all that much attention. Nailing down what the soul "is" seems to be similar for people to define what "faith" is. If you inquire about it, mostly all they'll give you is a quote from Scripture and as to an actual "personal" point of view, they just kinda give you that blank stare.

I like your line of thought in seeing the nature in a man being headstrong and a woman being heartstrong . . .we call that "emotional" which then gets taken the wrong way and we end up in more trouble than we planned for. pirat 

I can also see that in the spirit there is neither male nor female as the two have become one at that point. It's all dimensional of course because even though a man is transformed by the presence of God within him, he's still a "man" who still has a nature of being "head-strong".

I kinda get a little fuzzy on your rendition of the three being spirit, soul and the mind . . . Scripture has always referenced it to be spirit, soul and "body". So are you replacing the body with the mind?

For me it originates all the way back in Genesis when Adam was first created. He was a corpse. Just a body was created. Then God breathed in him and so you now have a body . . and a spirit being introduced to the body. As a result, the combination of the spirit residing in the body, Adam BECAME a living soul.

So in this sense, it marries up with what you were saying about becoming one. The spirit becomes one with the body and as a result, the soul is the evidence. Adam "became" a living being. And because our mind is the most central control center of us, my soul and my mind are directly related to each other.

That harmony played out in Adam's life, as did the disconnect and misalignment when Adam received from his Eve AND he ate of the tree of knowledge . . .Adam still had a being . . .he still had a personality, but his harmony "with" God had died, disconnecting his spirit from it's designated place of authority and he was then governed from then on by his soul. He still had God's spirit in him and the fact his personality was still intact, he clearly still had a soul . . .but what was originally created as "one" became "two" and what Jesus did was make two become one again . .soul and spirit.

it's interesting to note that my soul is the evidence that his spirit dwells in me as I live and breathe, but there can still be a disconnect. I can still reject God exists at the same time . . . It reminds me of Jesus' prayer over us . . .that we become as one as the Father is one . . . it's all about the unity between the soul and spirit within us . . .and it "can" happen easily when our mind/soul submits itself to our spirit . . .but having said that . . .the mind of man is one of the hardest elements to get to bend in this realm.

What transpired on the cross, for me, was a realignment

9Face Book Flyin' Empty Re: Face Book Flyin' on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:06 pm


I agree with what you say here, but I was not relating the "mind" to the "body"

If we see it as body, soul and spirit, it is the soul that is divided, the soul is the "male" and the "female" .... it is the heart and the mind that are divided. Our thoughts and emotions are our "being" our soul: what we believe and what we feel. In this we get the four corners of our earthly vessel, body, spirit, heart and mind (earth, wind, fire, water) not sure which pertains to which.

The spirit does the bidding of either the mind (male) or the heart (female), our spirit gets set free from running between the two, back and forth from thought to emotion or emotion to thought, the spirit in us is His Spirit, He is trying to get them to agree, that is done through understanding, understanding that they have to work together as one, like in a marriage so they both manifest the same thing, love in the union.

His Spirit wants to rest and teach both at once, rather than separately, running back and forth.

It is like looking at the image of God in Spirit, The Father (mind/male), the Son (heart/female), the Spirit (Holy Spirit), but also that each one can become another type at any time since they are "all in all", not one is more prominent, they rule together as One, not one is more important than another.

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

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