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She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash

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1 She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:08 pm

todosan


She will Fall with a Spectacular Crash

Hello all, been working on question. Will the coming economic and political crash come with manifest violence or is this language symbolic of spiritual matters. I have been praying about this for months and I am thinking that we are about to see a spectacular movement in our streets and cities. I am interested in all your views. I am going to skip over here what Babylon is, assuming you all understand that background.

Revelation 18:21
Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

First there is grace and then there is judgment. I see the Lord showing much longsuffering and grace, not repaying the deeds done by men, but there is another side. In the words of Asaph,

Psa 73:16
When I thought how to understand this,
It was too painful for me— Until I went into the sanctuary of God; Then I understood their end.

18 Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.

19 Oh, how they are brought to desolation, as in a moment! They are utterly consumed with terrors.
20 As a dream when one awakes, So, Lord, when You awake,You shall despise their image.


Asaph was speaking of the wicked in his generation. He was overcome with remorse how there seemed to be an unjust dealing with the wicked. They prospered, they spoke against God, and there was no justice. He couldn’t overcome until he entered God’s sanctuary. Then he understood their end. I find two subtle references in verse 19….. In a moment and consumed with terrors.

Rev 18:8
8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges[d] her.
Rev 18:19 …For in one hour she is made desolate.’

Today we are seeing that the governments of the world are sowing terror into the populations. If you have been following closely, you will realize that much of the news is manipulated to tell a story that is not accurate. In the back drop many laws continue to be passed that run counter to the freedom, liberty, and intent of our God fearing forefathers. Well, you reap what you sow. If you sow terror, then you will reap it. God’s law, not mine…

Asaph recognized that the wicked are cast down with destruction. If you can handle it, Christ is also the destroyer in many senses. For example, Heb 2:14

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


I find it here that the result of destruction is the release of His people that are held in captivity. I heard one preacher saying this is a release from sin. Perhaps that is true on a personal level, but that is not really what it says…They are in bondage to the fear of death; our real enemy in fact…. Is FEAR. So anyway, Christ can be a destroyer, and a darn good one.

The contradiction here is that in destroying the devil’s power, there was no outward violence except the violence of the cross.

I think it is different in the case with Babylon. So after the millstone is thrown into the sea (humanity) John gets invited to the marriage supper of the lamb. Hopefully you all understand this is not a four course meal for those escaping via the rapture. Jesus shows up on a white horse for judgment and war, and he wields a sword (of the spirit) to strike the nations. I tend to believe this is the sword that should have been wielded in Canaan if the spies had believed enough to enter. Instead they wielded the sword of the flesh.

Next an angel calls the birds of heaven to gather for the marriage supper. What’s for dinner? The Flesh of kings!!!!

Rev 19:18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i] and slave, both small and great.”
That which is doing the feasting is the birds of heaven. We know from Rev 18 what those are.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily[a] with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

Ok, so where is the base pattern for this?
It is when David overthrows Goliath. The Philistines (people of the flesh) have a warrior sent out to threaten David, but it will not be so… Look at these words!

1 Samuel 17:46
This day the Lord will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you. And this day I will give the carcasses of the camp of the Philistines to the birds of the air and the wild beasts of the earth, that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

This is what happens at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The head is removed (remember, Babylon is the head of Gold in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream) the carcasses of the people of the flesh are fed to the birds of the air just like in Rev 19.

So this seals it…
3 “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it.

Are these the same birds at the marriage supper? If this doesn’t get you thinking, I do not know what will…


2 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:40 pm

todosan


Nathan, where is Chapter 18 and 19 in the Revelation series.. Looking for the comparison

3 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:55 pm

cross-eyed

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Hey Todd, I emailed the two chapters to you . . .ironically, they are the next to from where I left off in posting them on here. Tape 27 and 28 . . .I have posted 27 right now, but I don't have enough time to reformat it . . .which means the actual texts out of Revelation are just gaps . . .I'll make sure I get this out later today. But the email I sent has everything intact . . and more . . .there's a lot of formatting that gets lost in the transition between the word document and the forum.

4 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:37 am

klm4jc


" If you have been following closely, you will realize that much of the news is manipulated to tell a story that is not accurate. In the back drop many laws continue to be passed that run counter to the freedom, liberty, and intent of our God fearing forefathers. "

To me it is as if the truth is being hidden until the last possible moment. When the light of truth is finally beginning to shine on the abomination of abortion with the trial of "Dr" Gosnell (the media being forced into even mentioning it) we then have the Boston bombers divert the light, like the eye of Sauron in LOTR it quickly changes its gaze to a different event. The spin machine then must go into overtime to assure everyone that the thing that they fear most has not come upon them.....'they acted alone'. The house of deceit will fall to be sure. I am just amazed at the patience of God. It feels like He is giving time to the five virgins to make sure they have oil in their lamps.

"I find it here that the result of destruction is the release of His people that are held in captivity. "

It's like there is this big building of the intensity of trial and tribulation in order for those who are called and perhaps too bound in whatever they are captive to (be it a worldly addiction or a religious tradition)to be able to tear through the veil of their carnal mind. There is definitely a forcing going on. God in His mercy and grace, is bringing about the situation that will force us to give up our self reliance on defeating the fear of death, only to show us that death has been defeated in Him. It's a brilliant plan actually. Note the pun...brilliant as is really smart and brilliant as in the bright and shining light of truth.

There seems to have been a shift in the spirit. Not sure when it happened. Maybe when the Mayan's said it would (Dec 21st this age ended) and a new day is upon us. We will not be able to understand what is happening looking through the eyes of Pentecost. The world will not be able to understand culturally what is happening looking through the eyes of the generation that went before it as well. There has been a generational shift.

I see the glory of the Lord manifesting. Like the return of spring, there is a delay for some reason, but it comes none the less. The liberty that exists on this forum is evidence of it.

Peace,
Kevin

ps. Isn't it amazing how as a nation our liberty is being hacked and slashed at around each corner? Maybe we are to learn a lesson, our liberty does not come from man made rules, it comes from the life of Christ. Only in losing our liberty will we find it.

5 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:58 am

todosan


Friday April 27, 2013

I am not sure there is a delay or we just don’t understand the timing. In Christ there is often the sense that things get delayed and delayed, but that is not the way it really is. The end is certainly known from the beginning, and if you can accept it, the timing is appointed.

There is an order that has to take place for all things to happen in time. If the end event, the climax, was to happen in the middle somewhere, what would be the purpose of all the events that come after? Nada.

In the case of government, the final government of the world should be obvious. It is God’s government. If any other government was suitable to reign instead of Christ’s, then what would be the need for Christ? Therefore, all governments that come before Christ, must prove themselves unworthy to reign. They are given an appointed time to reign and then they must transition. But wait, when these governments begin to fail, they protest loudly, as if the commission to govern is never ending. This happens in all man’s power systems.

The natural thing happens. The reigning power uses its power to persecute the coming power, but all authority under heaven and earth is established by God. He is irresistible. Therefore, when the appointed time comes, the transition will happen according to the will of God. There really is no delay, we just don’t get the timing.

As a sidebar, there is quite a measure of grace that comes with all this. If the system were to crash instantly, pandemonium would ensue. Many innocents would become victims, and there would be no limit to the lawlessness that would erupt. Instead, the master’s plan is unveiled with care, providing just the right opportunity for all to experience the tribulations necessary for their personal development. I know some will hate that idea, but that is the way life is. It is as much about the living cross journey as it is about peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

So Babylon falling is the elimination of confusion. Confusion about God’s laws and government perhaps. Nimrod was a conqueror and he laid the foundation to the original city Babylon. He had inherited Adam’s stolen animal skins from his grandfather Ham, and when he put them on, he went about conquering to and fro in the earth. He laid the foundation to this city, which really was a symbol of man’s strength. More candidly God also laid the foundation to a city. It was a place where He put His name. The king was Shem, who became Melchizedek, King of Righteousness.

In the earth there has always been these two bloodlines. The more prevalent has been man’s attempt to rule the world (said with a German accent), but because the actual rightful (birthright) rulership belongs to Christ, all these attempts will fail in the end. The four beast Kingdoms, the little horn, Mystery Babylon, and so forth. All are destined to failure, because they do not include Christ as the head. Therefore He will cut off their heads, figuratively speaking and return so to speak after receiving a Kingdom for Himself. Hallelujah.

Now, we are seeing something unusual. The bloodline of Christ and His government is coming into being. It is rising. True the little horn (the two beast system of finance and religion) is desperate to remain in control, but the writing is on the wall as it were. It has been found wanting after being weighed in the scales and the reign has been taken from it. Why, because it did not bring forth the fruit of the Kingdom, the offspring of God, nor could it. The love of money, the lifeblood of Babylon, the Euphrates that flows under the walls of the city, has been the thing that promoted her, and now it will be her downfall.

This bloodline of Christ is easily traced from Adam to Noah, and after the flood, through Shem. His seat of government goes back to the foundation of the city of Jerusalem, for its king was also a priest (Shem = Melchizedek). The King-priest is truly a mark of His authority and approval upon are particular dispensation. We see a king-priest in David, but not again so much until after Judah returns to the Promised Land. This was to fulfill the prophesy concerning the Messiah being born in the house of bread. Jesus obviously was a king-priest and was indeed a Rabbi. He is the King of kings. Following his death and resurrection, he obtains for Himself a nation of priests through the impartation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. This was the purpose of the first coming. The second coming, however, was not to die again, but to be the second of two witnesses. It was to establish not another priesthood, but to establish the reign of His government on earth. This is the kingly anointing that both David and Jesus possessed. This is when the king-priest is again revealed, but this time on the corporate level. This is the man child, the many membered man, the first resurrection, and the establishment of His government on the earth.

So in the four empires of Daniel, they come in this order : Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. We understand from our prophetic discipline, that these patterns repeat in part and in full. By understanding the pattern, we can locate where we are today in a similar pattern. The word is good!

The four metals of Daniel are also the same four kingdoms, which are the four beasts as well. They follow the same order throughout the book. Babylon is the head gold, Medo-Persia is the arms of silver, Greece is the belly of bronze and Rome is the legs iron. We know that Cyrus (a Christ type) overthrows Babylon in 539 BC, or if you will, the arms of silver overthrow the head of Gold.

Now, in our time the money system is the head of gold. It is not by chance that we have Goldman Sachs sitting at the top of this power structure which is still a mystery to most believers. The financial system today is the second beast. So, as God would have it, the arms of silver (redemption) will overthrow the head of gold. When silver collapsed this last week, we saw it here as a positive sign. The Babylonians are terrified of silver and have shorted it intensely to save their fiat (faith) currency, the dollar. The price was slammed, but the physical market remained unchanged and premiums rose to cover the actions of the manipulators. This was unprecedented, and is a strong sign of what is to come. You should fasten your seat belt if you haven’t already done so.

Last night I was considering this all again. The Lord rides out on a white horse to make war at the marriage supper of the lamb. Those that follow are dressed in righteousness and are conquerors, just as Nimrod was a conqueror. However, they wield a spiritual sword. A sword of God that brings truth and life. I think this is the light that Kevin is referring to. The foul of the air, the powers of the dark realms are about to devour the flesh of kings…… and you all are invited.

6 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:11 am

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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I am a little hesitate to say what I am about to say ... and I pray that no one takes offense to it ...

but I ask the question: is not everything that is seen in the physical events of the world "always" seen in the Scriptures? Is this not why the events in this realm are constantly repeated? Not for the purpose of seeing Scripture unfold in the event of the world but so that we will see the spiritual events unfolding within ourselves .... as individuals and as a corporate body in Christ?

If we see a crash that is about to happen in this realm, is it not to be recognized as a crash that is about to take place within ourselves or a crash that is to take place within the corporate body of Christ?

Are not all physical events just shadows of what is happening within us spiritually?

Is not our focus to be in what is taking place within .. not what is taking place without? In other words ... what is taking place within ourselves, not what is taking place outside of ourselves?

Is not our focus to be on the events (works) of Christ .. not the events (works) of the world?

Of course ... this is just my opinion from what I have come to understand.

Jugghead



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

7 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:30 am

todosan


Great post Jugghead.

We have called this multiple levels look a “dimensional” one. Yes, it is true that perhaps the focus should be inward, because that is what make the changes on a personal level. Often prophecy teachers have missed that very important dimension, and thus missed the change that would take place as a result of consuming that particular manna.

There is a ditch on both sides of the road, however. People can miss the corporate level of interpretation also, by having solely an inward focus. Both foci are important, but they may not be equally important.

So, yes, we can tell that there is a crash coming in the corporate level, similar to what might be happening on an individual level. EVERYONE I am talking to is going through great struggle. It is all tailored for us to bring us out of the Babylonian mindset. The confusion is rooted in the duality of our thinking and those towers of Babel are about to come crashing down, only because the Kingdom of God is arising in us as much as it is around us.


8 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:14 pm

Patrick1


Hi Everyone

This might not be totally related but I felt I needed to share it here.

Act 14:22 ... and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


In the natural we all seem to have a tendency to... for lack of a better metaphor "just let dogs lie", we tend to not press into the kingdom when everything around us is going good. For some strange reason it takes much tribulation to encourage us to get off our laurels and start seeking to hear him, and for him to deliver us from the evil coming upon us.

Tribulation comes from the word thlipsis and means pressure.

Literally God is going to use the pressure upon Babylon to press us into the fullness of the image of his dear son.

I used to work at Maytag and worked on the presses that ranged from 100 tons per square inch of pressure all the way up to 400 tons of pressure. We would take a sheet of steel and put it upon a dye: which was two metal forms one on top and one on the bottom, cover the part in oil so it would not bust when pressed and then hit the buttons and the press would hit the part between the two dyes with 100's of tons of pressure for just an instant. Forever changing the sheet of steel. Now depending on the dye and the part being made the dye would cut the steel, punch holes, or permanently form the metal into a different shapes. But you could not do all steps at the same time. Usually just one or two steps at a single pressing were done. Some parts would have to be pressed 8-10 times in order for the finished product to be made.

Sometimes the part would bust and crack from the pressure applied and we would simply throw it away along with any other scrap that was created from the process, and all of the scrap would be recycled into new coils of steel to be used again.

Every bit of that was a spiritual metaphor God is taking us and through much pressure conforming us permanently into the image of his dear son. Without pressure there would be no lasting change in our lives. But first the oil of the holy ghost must be upon us or when the pressure comes to conform us into his image we will bust. Now depending on where we fit into the body of Christ we may only go through a few pressings or we may go through many. But through much tribulation we are going to enter in.

9 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Wed May 01, 2013 2:04 pm

todosan


Patrick,

Great reference. I think you were getting to the heart of my question that I was praying about. I am the first one in line to spiritualize a matter, thus, the reason I was asking the question. I really do believe we are going to see this tribulation first hand, and yes, it is a sign of something going on inside us all. EVERYONE I have talked to is saying, "It is like the struggle was specificially design for me personally."

I know that I have serious quirks in my personality. These things have been there a long time, but it seems now the Lord is saying they have to be removed. Every day it is just a tiny bit easier, but I can finally see there is hope.

10 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Fri May 03, 2013 11:29 am

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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todosan wrote:Patrick,

Great reference. I think you were getting to the heart of my question that I was praying about. I am the first one in line to spiritualize a matter, thus, the reason I was asking the question. I really do believe we are going to see this tribulation first hand, and yes, it is a sign of something going on inside us all. EVERYONE I have talked to is saying, "It is like the struggle was specificially design for me personally."

I know that I have serious quirks in my personality. These things have been there a long time, but it seems now the Lord is saying they have to be removed. Every day it is just a tiny bit easier, but I can finally see there is hope.

not to quibble about details ... but I am one who loves detail ....

personality is related to identity and identity is related to nature ... so the serious quirks you have .... or think you have will be taken away .... simply because you have the new nature/identity/personality of Christ ... and it is He that will take them away and done in due time ... His time ....

all things have a purpose and we have come to understand that the purpose of all things is to understand all things ... but again ... in due time .... when it is time for it to be removed ... it will be.

It is so the glory of the Lord will show through all things ... including the removal of quirks ... if seen as missing the mark .... we know through faith, they will be removed.

We are all in this process ... the only difference is ... different things are removed at different times simply because .... we are all different. Each and everyone of us is unique to God, and that is because He designed us in that way.

Just some words of encouragement from one brother to another in Christ.

Jugg



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

11 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Sun May 05, 2013 5:13 pm

Patrick1


Hi Jugghead that was a wonderful post you made in response to todosan answer to me. I agree fully In time God will fully remove from his field the tare we think we are and he is going to fully persuade each and every one of us that we truly are not the tare but just the wheat of His character and nature.

Hi todosan:

Tribulation works patience Romans 5:3 Patience when it has it's perfect work in us will make us entire, perfect and wanting nothing James 1:4. The traditional church seems to want to escape the very thing that will perfect them.

Now tribulation will destroy any who because of a stony heart do not have the proper soil in their heart to allow the seed to develop a root, Christ, to form in themselves.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
(Mat 13:20-21 KJV)


The word offended is from the greek word Skandalizo and means
1. to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
a. to entice to sin
b. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
1. to cause to fall away
2. to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
3. to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
c. since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
1. to cause one displeasure at a thing
2. to make indignant
3. to be displeased, indignant

When we trust in our ability of the old man to live our lives we are trusting in our stony heart to bring us solutions to our problems,and not in the life of Christ. And when tribulation comes up we will find we are entrapped in sin and will begin to do every aspect of the definition brings out. The stony heart must be removed and we each must be given a heart of flesh that is able to live by the life of the seed in us.


I noticed that you mentioned the birds coming to the lambs supper and they eating the flesh of man in your first post. But I wanted to point out what occurred right before the birds were called to the supper.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
(Rev 19:11-16 KJV)

This is the same white horse released in us at the opening of the first seal where the white horse is seen going forth to conquer all in us that is not like him but now Here God has conquered all in us and is now riding out of us his saints and bringing correction through his manifested sons to all the nations in his wrath against all the flesh of the nations holds unto that is not from his nature and character. This verse goes with another verse where God comes to be glorified in us and pours out his wrath from us.


Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(2Th 1:6-10 KJV)


When the stony heart is fully removed in us and he has ridden to every corner of our heart conquering all his enemies then there will come a time where he will begin to ride out of us to the entire world bringing correction and shattering the flesh like a piece of pottery. Many will not receive the life coming from us and all that will be left for them is to die. Many will literally drop dead in the churches at that time. But eventually god will raise them up again and will continue to bring them the correction they previously refused.

Grace and peace Patrick

12 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Mon May 06, 2013 9:06 am

A.R.T.I.C

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Hi Jugghead that was a wonderful post you made in response to todosan answer to me. I agree fully In time God will fully remove from his field the tare we think we are and he is going to fully persuade each and every one of us that we truly are not the tare but just the wheat of His character and nature.

Hi Patrick,
I absolutely Love the way you worded this....It is no doubt a mindset in us that needs to go...that being, Of what the Accuser has convinced us that we are, and not who God says that we are...

For we are The Redeemed
We are The Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus
We are a chosen Generation
""" A New Creation
""" A Royal Priesthood
""" The Church..The body of Christ
""" Free from The Accuser
""" Dead to sin but Alive unto God
""" Partakers of His Divine Nature
""" Wheat and not tares
""" Have The mind of Christ
""" Abiding in Eternal Life
""" Taking part in The First Resurrection
""" Blessed Abundantly
""" All things belong unto us
""" heirs and joint heirs with Christ
""" A Kingdom
Etc....Etc...Etc.... cheers cheers cheers






The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

13 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Wed May 08, 2013 7:40 pm

Patrick1


Amen Artic!!!

We are most assuredly gods and all of us are sons of the most high!

14 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Wed May 08, 2013 7:44 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Patrick1 wrote:Amen Artic!!!

We are most assuredly gods and all of us are sons of the most high!

Yes, and don't forget saviors also Oba.1:21

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

15 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Wed May 08, 2013 7:53 pm

cross-eyed

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I wanted to just back up a sec and throw my 2 cents at some of the observations taking place in the thread. I don't know if it's because of the religious experiences I've had in the past or if it's because of the experiences of freedom I've had but when I read Jugg's first response, it struck a similar chord in me as well in the sense that so many people take Scripture and over-lay current events and begin making claims that pretty much do one of two things.

One, they use such a broad stroke of vagueness in their application that the passages they use could really fit "any" natural event, to the point you get the feeling that it becomes "the boy who cried WOLF" syndrome. And the effectiveness of their words come across more as an alarmist than a liberator.

Or . . .the other option is kind of more of a dove-tale than a deliberate "or". And that is, the message becomes a distraction from the inward picture of what's happening IN every man, which is where the spiritual application takes place.

In my days of walking in the "churchisms" there was another term they used when applying prophesies in scripture to current events and that's the "law of double-meaning". Which is to say that the prophecy was clearly meant for that generation that it was written in . . .and . . .it's also meant to manifest a second time in our generation. But I've never actually seen any instances where that's really been the truth.

I can lose track of my own focus when I lean too far toward natural events matching up with scriptural prophesies. And like Jugghead, this is just my own opinion on the matter as well. I do embrace the principle that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths, but I'm much more hesitant taking spiritual truth and applying it to natural circumstances.

It's not my intention to discard it all, but at the same time, it's never really brought much clarity to me to see Revelation be applied to this generation, the last generation or the generation to come. I think there "is" an end to man, and an end to this natural realm's dominance over the spiritual realm . . .when or how all that transpires? It's not irrelevant, but at the same time, I can't say the priority of knowing is really all that high for me either. Walking in the light, FOR ME, doesn't carry a lot of emphasis in measuring the days of the existence of darkness and that seems to be what most people are doing when they reach back 2,000 years and beyond and try to align the current events of today with them.

I don't know . . .it doesn't mesh for me.

16 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Wed May 08, 2013 8:30 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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The main reason I view it the way I do is because of experiencing a spiritual event in myself that He used a physical event in the world as an example for it.

The spiritual experience I went through was the crumbling towers of pride and my finances; my finances being what I placed value on and God used the example of the twin towers of the world trade center as the physical example of the spiritual experience He was putting me through ...

This in itself is related to the renewing of the mind what my mind placed value upon by following the ways of the world .... and the changing of the heart from a heart of stone (pride) into a heart of flesh (His heart)... pride in my actions of obedience to the law (which is works).

When we come to understand that fear has to be offset in our mind by something else ... pride is what keeps fear hidden from others ... and through works ... works is the fuel to keep the flame of pride burning so that the real flame of fear is not seen.

And that is a perfect example of the Name of the towers ... World Trade Center .... trading fear for pride.

Again, this is only what I have come to understand up to this point in my life.

Jugghead



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

17 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Wed May 08, 2013 8:45 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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That was sooo Good Sweetie....

Quote
When we come to understand that fear has to be offset in our mind by something else ... pride is what keeps fear hidden from others ... and through works ... works is the fuel to keep the flame of pride burning so that the real flame of fear is not seen.

And that is a perfect example of the Name of the towers ... World Trade Center .... trading fear for pride.

Again, this is only what I have come to understand up to this point in my life. END Quote



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18 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu May 09, 2013 9:06 am

todosan


I am not just saying it when I say thank you for your inputs.

Personally for me I am quite a bit like you all, but based on a unique set of experiences. When the Lord started to teach me about prophecy, it was very much in isolation. Little did I know what was coming. I was very naive and had a world view that everyone in the church was generally honest and for doing the right thing.

In time, as we grew together in our small group, we came head to head with some nasty spirits. I know what you think from the demon thread, and I am inclined to think these were the spirits of men. It was several years of being blindsided. I inherently have a weakness. I trust people at face value and I generally do not treat them with thoughts of suspicion. Then after having trouble with the prophetic types, the Lord would say to me “See that?”. I would hear things that made no sense at all until later when all the wheels fell off and …oh ya… the Lord told me this months ago!!!!

We were big on prophecy, but I had many, many questions. Questions that I felt the Lord was very slow to answer. Most contemporary prophesies I heard witnessed did not come to pass or were proven false. They were soul prophecies. I learned that often people could perceive spiritual things, but had no clue to what it really meant. At the time I strongly believed that interpretation was a gift, and we all know that it is. But the training in that gift almost all Christians lacked. We know that there is more to it than merely receiving your gift from God.

For those who “do not have”:

Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’


Do you know your gifting brother? But I jest.

The following years we went through the trials of discernment. There was one, maybe two prophets that we met that could speak a proceeding word. Most others spoke a soul word. A few times, I heard the Lord speak to me and later I would meet a person who would say that same word. That raises a few eyebrows! Then the Lord taught us on the double witness.

Not all prophesy is fulfilled on every level. Some are, others are not. We had to learn how to judge prophecy. There is timing and intent. There are many things that have to be spiritually discerned in addition to the mere words that are forthtold.

I recall the dreams that Joseph interpreted. I remarked to the Lord once while reading, “Geez, I would not have interpreted those dreams that way.” The Lord’s response was something like, “That’s because the interpretation comes from Me.” Oh.

So for the last five years or so, I have lived in the mode of introspection that all of you have pointed to. Yep, no problem there. If there is ever a sure interpretation, that is it. If it ever matters to me personally, then I must understand the way we see things play out within ourselves.

Looking back on the first line of my first post, I guess I was being presumptuous. Obviously many of you do not believe there is coming a crash of the system (in spite of the fact that we are making all the historical mistakes of countries and nations before us). Very well.

I am finding as of late, that I can relate closely to those whose lives are presented to us in the bible. I feel their anguish and remorse at the circumstances that surround them. I refer to Asaph and to other prophets. They had lived their lives before God and felt punished for no reason. Perhaps this was epitomized in the cross of Christ? Perhaps…. Selah. But there is a culmination in the way that God deals with mankind, and I personally believe all is not lost. I had to enter His sanctuary to remember the end of the wicked and that God’s word is true. He is never late, and justice is never perverted. I had lost sight of that because my eyes were on the never ending delay. It is this simple acknowledgement that I am sighting that connects the personal to the corporate.

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


19 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu May 09, 2013 12:11 pm

cross-eyed

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It's a touchy area with a lot of church people when they become aggressive toward you about their proclamations of things that they believe God said about something and you're not in the same room, let alone on the same level as they are. I say this not with the intent that you Todd, are among them, it's merely from past experiences with "them".

It's kind of like the ministry in the church where they pump up their congregation over some guy that is to come visit them who has a "gift" of prophecy and people get all excited to have him lay hands on them . . .but . . . again, I don't agree with that concept any more either due to the fact that everything God does, is based on relationship and not religion. This visiting speaker has no relationship with the people, he's just going around speaking stuff into people he's never met and it's like an energy drink . . .they get a rush out of the initial experience but shortly after, they resume life as they did before.

I think the ministry has been abused like everything else the church has projected. There "is" a place for it but I think it's more between Fathers and sons . . .spiritually speaking . . .than it is between a congregation and an unknown visitor.

The idea of prophesying natural events or the emphasis of doing so has somewhat perplexed me because on the one hand, we're not to worry about what comes tomorrow as we have enough life in front of us today . . .birds that don't toil and spin, flowers that don't concern themselves with next week's weather . . .how much moreso does the Father tend to his kids . . .but yet there's the other side that gets all excited about whether the world ends tomorrow or a thousand years from now . . .it kinda contradicts itself in a way for me.

20 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu May 09, 2013 12:35 pm

todosan


A lot can be said about the end of the world stuff. Not really a biblical concept for the most part. That sort of proves one point. If we are ignorant of the truth in the way God gave it, then we are easily led astray. The more I dive into the word and its revelation, the more I realize how I have been deceived by doctrines and men.

That is not to say in any way that the truth cannot be discovered. On the contrary, all who seek it find it.

To me, the corporate manifestation of prophecy is exciting and a breath of fresh air. It was a pure walk of frustration until the Lord started to open up doors of understanding and frankly I started asking the question, “What’s the point, anyway?” I think it is really about revealing the glory of God.

As things started to gel in my understanding I began to realize that God has basically told us everything. There is no secret really, I just couldn’t understand the language even though I spoke the words in every day conversation. Ever seeing, but never really perceiving.

The revelation of time was a biggy. I was SOOOOOO frustrated even when things came to pass. They almost ALWAYS did not happen when expected. I was always tempted to dismiss the prophecy based on my own limited understanding of time. It is still very limited, but I have the ground rules and I have discovered that the timing for all things is ordained and infallible. Even when God gives time for all others to fail, His timing lands on the mark. Every time. Its amazing.

So the current events issue is really polluted. Most prophecy teachers are operating on a false premise due to an abject lack of understanding. They produce timelines that don’t play out and that damages the hearer. It damaged me certainly. Now that I understand time better, I know instantly if people are interpreting things according to their own understanding. I know of one prophet with amazing depth of perception. He calls out many details that do come to pass, but often completely out of time. He can’t see time and that is why the internet is flooded with accusation against him. I read his stuff because it often confirms what I know and hear from God. But my language is different. I see it in terms of Tabernacles and he always calls it out in terms of Pentecost. I often wonder why God doesn’t catch him up to speed. I keep sensing it is a matter of choice.

Nathan, I believe that the reason why people become aggressive about their own proclamations is because to them it is a matter of life and death. You know, you are supposed to stone the false prophet. Personally, I have given a few prophecies to people that did not come to pass. I wonder about those, but there is the faith factor too. Those people had real contempt towards me, revealed much later on. I suppose that comes into play, but I don’t know for sure.

I do not support the idea much about the itinerant prophet, although I know one who is amazing. Personally, the things he has spoken to me have been life changing, but I know him and have relationship with him. That I guess proves your point to a degree.

The biblical pattern is more between spiritual fathers and sons. Moses to Joshua, Paul to Timothy, etc. Most of the time, the unknown visitor can wreak havoc very easily and the congregation calls it all “God”. I chuckle now. …..but not back then.

21 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu May 09, 2013 1:59 pm

cross-eyed

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Thanks Todd for taking the time to share your heart a bit on this. I truly do hear the Father's sound in your words. I think you and I have both been tainted in our past religious experiences and it continues to purge out of us from time to time as we continue in our pursuits and endeavors toward the goal of our journey.

And frankly, I do believe the world as we know it is coming to an end just as I believe this nation could easily find itself among the status level of the other 3rd world countries if we continue going down the road our political leaders continue leading us on.

I also personally believe the religious system as a whole is going to collapse as well. Am I prophesying that? Quite possibly. I believe what we see in the spirit and call out in the natural can very easily be considered as prophesying.

It reminds me of the book of Acts where their prophets and prophetesses warned of a coming famine, not to bring fear but to begin preparation. If we're alarming the world that the end is coming . . . what is our purpose? If it's preparation, what more can be done to prepare for the end that Christ hasn't already done for us?

For me the preparation is not a physical one . . .like those building underground bunkers in their backyards and such, but it's more of a spiritual one. One that calls us to walk in the spirit rather than in the flesh. Doing so enables us to see "beyond" the natural, physical events and into the original plan Love has already established, and informed us about. To see the coming of the Lord in the flesh . . .through our flesh . . .is a much greater message than seeing the collapse of the money market, political or religious systems.

But at the same time, in order for the former to manifest, the latter must be removed from their places. It's all a preparation for greater things to come.

22 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Thu May 09, 2013 4:00 pm

todosan


If the Israelites had not killed the lamb and painted the door posts ahead of time, many homes would have lost a person to the death angel. No doubt, it was all a work of Christ, but it does require our participation, and even moreover, our obedience.

I don’t look at preparation as I once did. There is no way with my means to store vast amounts of anything and frankly, what would be enough? It seems tiresome to me. I have prayed and received small directions that all seem common sense. It is more about being faithful in the little things that we would be proven worthy to be faithful in the greater.

I find greater value in preparing the inward parts. In the time of great need or catastrophe, I would call upon His name for sure. How much greater treasure could there be than to KNOW the One who sends deliverance on time. I do not believe, however, that you can be prepared in the inward man totally without also using the things and circumstances around us to practice our faith toward God.

I remember one time on a flight to India, I fell asleep. When I awoke we were still in the air three hours longer than scheduled. I started to panic. The people I was to meet in downtown Mumbai would be long gone and I would be there alone at 2:00am by myself stranded. I started to pray, and I prayed until I found peace. When we landed, I saw the people in line waiting to pass through customs, to my surprise. Their flight from England was also delayed the same amount of time. Now how could that be?

I don’t like to be stressed or scared, but if I must pass through those fires to instill His character in me, so be it. Likewise, if I need to buy rice, silver, and bullets, I will but only as a matter of obedience. Jesus told them to take a sword one time. I don’t recall that they ever used it.

Luke 22:35
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”

36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’[d] For the things concerning Me have an end.”

38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”

23 Now you done did it!! on Fri May 10, 2013 10:35 am

cross-eyed

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Yes!!! And Amen, bro!!!! For me, our part is to see what's already finished in the kingdom (which is within us all) and call them out AS THOUGH THEY WERE . . .Thy Kingdom COME Thy will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN . . .See the kingdom's finished works, call them into existence in the earths unfinished plan.

Then you go and knock on the door of swords . . . do you have ANY idea how much that story there means to me??? It's the introduction to the event where Jesus turned and rebuked Peter for using the very sword Jesus just instructed them to sell whatever they had to equip themselves with one. That was to ALL the disciples . . .and the come back with only TWO swords and he said that was sufficient??? If I were one to embrace the literal aspects of Scripture . . .I would forever be perplexed with that entire situation.

However . . .I'm "not" one to emphasize literal over spiritual and as such . . .I see the sword signifying the Word in us and the fact there were two indicates to me that the WITNESS of his WORD in us is sufficient. It's not meant for warfare or defense like Peter was using it, it's meant for reproductive life within us. The sword breathes through us a Word of truth that stimulates our spirit to release the seed of his life into our womb/mind where understanding is then BIRTHED as opposed to "learned".

When Peter was told to put his sword away . .for me . . . oh, and he called him SATAN even!!! How terrible!! (gasp!!) But the truth is, I don't see him talking to Peter, I see him talking to Simon . . .the old nature of Peter. The one who we all have within every one of us, the adversary against . . .blind and deaf to . . .the invisible truths and plan of God within us in the form of spirit to spirit relationship.

But because the sword was being misused and abused, Jesus (signifying my Spirit) took authority over the adversarial nature (satan, my soul) and brought alignment back into the situation, bringing healing to the religious representative being the servant of the high priest who lost his ear (hearing of truth) because of the violence between the religious.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I like to just hear myself talk from time to time .. . don't tell my wife that, I've been denying it for years. drunken

24 Re: She Will Fall with a Spectacular Crash on Fri May 10, 2013 11:09 am

todosan


Ah yeah. Talk to me about swords... In the Feast of Tabernacles we wield the sword of life, not death.. That was the intent when they went into the Promised Land...

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