You are not connected. Please login or register

The Matrix

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Go down  Message [Page 3 of 4]

51 The Matrix on Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:52 pm


"Krisis"...a fascinating word. Like so many other english words, we do not enjoy the nuances of the word "judgment" in the original languages. When we sit as a judge of another man, we take a position of great peril. Because of that fact, we have learned that mercy triumphs over judgment and we all have needed, and do continue to need mercy.

That having been said, Judgment is not a determination that someone is "going to hell" and needs to be saved. We can see from the words that come from the heart whether a person is in the flesh or in the spirit. Peter was in the spirit when he answered Jesus: "You are the Christ" as confirmed by Jesus Himself when He said that no man had revealed this to Peter except the Spirit. In the very same chapter, Jesus says that he has come to offer His life as a ransom for all and we now see Peter taking Jesus aside to correct Him. Peter is then rebuked: "Get thee behind me satan." Peter was judged. Ananias and Saphira lied to the Holy Ghost and were judged. There are other examples as well as the book of Judges and the examples of Deborah and Gideon and others.

The world is in crisis....it is under judgment. There are two errors to which we succumb. The first is that we judge with human judgment or religious judgment and make the wrong decision. Having learned that we do not have the right or capacity to judge, we then swing over into the other ditch and judge nothing..."It's all good." It isn't all good and it isn't all righteous. Righteous judgment comes from the heart of Christ and recognizes the heart. "Some show the law written on the heart."

There is no question that the greatest error has been on the side of too much judgment rendered all together too quickly, but that does not excuse the fact that too many refuse to exercise judgment (call it discernment or whatever) and permit and accept things that should be disallowed. We do not judge another man as to sin, for we do not know what measure of light he walks in and it is to his own master that he stands or falls. At the same time, 1 Cor 6:2 tells us that the Saints shall judge the world and should judge even the smallest matters...including the angels. Are we not to judge prophecy??

I know that the pride that judges too harshly and too quickly and too erroneously and ultimately is wrong, is a major blemish for the "church". At the same time, the foolishness of the "church" and its gullibility makes it susceptible to the lies and manipulation of this world. Our sword needs to be sharpened, our discernment quickened and our senses strengthened to discern good and evil. It is not that the world does not need judges, it is that it needs the judges of God to bring deliverance from deception and bondage....at least that is my opinion...(subject to change should the Lord allow).

52 Re: The Matrix on Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:04 pm



I'm a big mythology buff myself. I agree that the gods were men. The book "origins of pagan idolatry" by Faber is a very good look at this subject. A more popular one is 2 babylons, by Hislop. Fabers is a little more in depth, and older by 50 years or so. Its free online btw. Before I came into a kingdom understanding I had been studying this subject and it was haunting me. It was overtaking my life, which many things do, I'm a bit obsessive. Anyway God was pulling me toward Kingdom and I needed to go there before I could take all that knowledge and apply it to anything in me. I remember being torn. It was right around that time I read Nathan's "experiencing the tabernacle" at tentmaker. I trudged on until I found the mirror and enigma in 1 Cor 13 (I wrote about it in my intro on the welcome thread). Once I went down the rabbit hole of kindgom, I put down the pagan study. I had almost forgot about it. Then we were meeting with our ecclesia one of the first times I met the others, and there was a song about Mt. Hermon, and transfiguration, coming from Psalm 133. It brought back all that study I did, and put something together I was trying to figure out. I had just read that Moses died on Mt. Nebo.

Nebo is the scribe god of babylon. He carried the tablets of the law. He was the mediator for the gods. As you can see, this is quite similar to Moses himself. Moses died on the Mountain that is the pagan version of himself. Coincidence? Nah. The Greek version of Nebo is Hermes. Mt. Hermon is named after Hermes. And Mt. Hermon was considered to be the mountain of the gods in all pagan religions.

So Moses who is the law, the natural mind dies on the mountain of the god that is identical to him. And Jesus who is the Spirit, is glorified/resurrected on the same mountain in type. Moses could not enter the promised land. Yes he struck the rock again, but he could have never entered I don't think, because he is the type for flesh and blood, which cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Joshua (Yeshua) had to take them in.

Hermes' had a symbol that we are all quite familiar with. It is a staff, with 2 snakes coiling around it. Its the caduceus, the symbol for medicine. We derive hermetic seal, hermeneutics, hermaphrodite, etc. from his name. I could expand on each of those, and their significance, but I want to stay on track. The cadaceus is almost identical to the bronze serpent on the pole, which Jesus likened himself to!

Another version of Hermes is Prometheus. The one who gave fire to men. The gods were very angry because what the fire represented was not just plain fire, although the evolution of culture could not proceed without it. Is this not a picture of the religious elite taking their vengence on Jesus? " I have said ye are all gods."

Mt. Hermon is also called Mt. Zaphon, or Saphon. Its also called Sion, same pronunciation of zion! This is the mountain that "lucifer" tried ascend. The sides of the North, or the heights of Zaphon. It is the mountain of the gods, this is supposedly where the sons of God came down to the daughters of men according to Enoch. Now in the Baal myth, there is the story of Attar. Attar is the male version of Ashtar/Ishtar/Easter/Aster. Also known as the morning star. He tries to ascend the throne of Baal. The word thats badly been translated as Lucifer is morning star, and means light bearer. Its heylel.

Isa 14
“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

13“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north. (heights of Zaphon)

14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’

15“Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.

16“Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,

Attar the morning star tries to ascend above the throne. And yet Jesus is the Morning Star, who was placed above all rulers and powers. Peter says until the day dawns and the morning start arises in your hearts.

Attar=Adam=Moses=natural mind they all died on that mountain
Jesus is made alive on that mountain, He is the true Hermes. He is the true Baal (lord). He is the true morning star. He is the fullfillment of both the Jewish Myth and Pagan myth. (and by myth I don't mean things that are inherently false, but the story that contains the Spirit).

The point I was trying to make is that this knowledge did me no good until it was quickened by the Spirit for me.

53 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:23 pm


Jeremy1 wrote:...this knowledge did me no good until it was quickened by the Spirit for me.


This is a vast store of knowledge, Jeremy. What strikes me here is how God has written His story everywhere! I was listening to Chuck Missler once a couple decades ago and he was relating how the gospel message was written in Genesis. Literally. Spelled out word-for-word. It is written into the geneology from Adam to Noah. Each name back then had a specific and prophetic meaning. Witness:

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort

Pretty tidy, that.

I hope Todd will jump in here and expand upon what he has discovered about "Lucifer." He tried to explain it to me one day and it sounded important--and encouraging--I just can't remember it other than bits and pieces.

54 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:44 pm


wow thats awesome David. I've done a lot of name sentences like that before, but I hadn't done that one.

I've got a rough paper on Lucifer/Adam that I might post. I'm trying to redo it along with about 5 other inter-related topics, and it will probably turn out to be a book by the time I'm done. The problem is I'm no writer. And it all makes sense to me the way I've laid it out, but I don't think most people think laterally like I do.

55 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:56 pm


Jeremy1 wrote:I've got a rough paper on Lucifer/Adam that I might post. I'm trying to redo it along with about 5 other inter-related topics, and it will probably turn out to be a book by the time I'm done. The problem is I'm no writer. And it all makes sense to me the way I've laid it out, but I don't think most people think laterally like I do.

It sounds like this may be the same line that Todd had stumbled upon.

If you can collect your thoughts and put them in some kind of order on paper then you have achieved something. I'm not sure what lateral thinking is, but I do enjoy deciphering things where I am able.

56 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:59 pm


Is lateral thinking about how we relate to one another?

57 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:41 pm


I just looked up the definition of lateral thinking, and although it sort of summarizes what I think when I say "lateral thinking", I'm not sure it captures it.

Maybe I'd call it synthetic thinking or something like that. What I'm saying is I have a hard time going from point A to point Z. I start with Z in mind, but then I see how B relates to D, then D to A, and on and on. So you don't get a linear progression so much in what I'm trying say, but end up with 5 topics with 10 subtopics each. What you end up with is a full explanation IMO, but we've been so trained in A-B, B-C, C-D that we have a hard time following all the side bars. And I usually forget what Z was in the first place because I get distracted with all the side stuff.

Clear as mud right? jocolor

Maybe I'll just post the papers and I'll let you guys see.

58 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:57 pm


Jeremy1 wrote:Maybe I'll just post the papers and I'll let you guys see.


It sounds kind of like what Linda was getting at too: relational thinking. That's probably a lot more appropriate for this fellowship than linear thinking anyway. Smile

I'd love to see what you've put together about Adam/Lucifer!

59 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:37 pm


Hell and Satan are my two favorite subjects... How is that for a starting line?

The reason, and I wasn't kidding, is that the revelation of these two things, transformed my entire life. I was able to stop judging when I learned what hell is, and I really began to finally understand who my enemy really is when I learned what a man is.

The verses in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 was stating things actually pretty clearly, but in my religious, regurgitative stupor, I believe the dogma rather than truth. 40 years worth possibly, and looking back, I can remember the Spirit pointing out to me that the fallen was Adam. But I ignored it for a long time.

Here, for the record:

Ezekiel 28 – Prince of Tyre
The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God:
“Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

v13 :You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

Ok, there were only three in the garden at this time that this could apply to… and for the sake of the discussion, there really only is man and the serpent.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you

Now, look carefully. “Until iniquity was found”, meaning it wasn’t there at first. This could not apply to the serpent. Why, because Jesus said so, that’s why.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

The key words here being “from the beginning”. There was never a time in scripture that satan was glorious, or bright or shining (although you could say he tried to fake it - 2 Cor 11:14). On the contrary, Adam was created in the image of God, and thus for a time was the bright morning star. The name Lucifer does not refer to a devil but a bright star, or the shining son of the morning. Adam was this until the fall and the evil of world today is largely the result of the fallen mind, which by the way is susceptible to demonic influence. The mind of Christ is not.

The whole of Christendom gives a great deal of power to the devil and completely overlooks the power of Adam, yet it is Adam that is our enemy. Ever single issue we face, every single failure comes from the natural lineage. Therefore, being born again, into Christ, is the proper antidote.

Adam was a marvelous work of the Father, a glorious son, but he traded it to be like God, when in fact he was in God’s image. Since that time, Adam has coveted God’s throne and seek to rule over men.

Isa 14:16 Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms

Really? Yep. This is a man, who wanted to be God. With the passage on the prince of Trye it is clear. He was lifted up in his heart and said, “I am a God.” Its not the devil who said such things, but Adam.
Ok, so there is going to be a thousand questions, but there is a good answer for all. When we know who the real enemy is, we stop fighting serpents, and start crucifying the one who is afflicting us, the way God intended it to be.

60 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:41 pm


(Todd's post above is a good example of a linear progression, now compare it to mine which is convoluted to say the least) [I tried to post this on its own post because I've highlighted and underlined, but that doesn't follow with copy and past.]

I'm starting from the point that most people do in that these are the main verses which support Lucifer=satan=the cherub in the garden, thus a fallen angel

Isa 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

the word translated (wrongly)lucifer (which is latin btw, not greek, should give you a hint its use as a proper name is wrong) is heylel/light bearer, adam is the light bearer, as he was the bearer of the image of El

Here is the translation in Nasb
How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Rev 22
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!

I don't feel comfortable with the same title being given to Christ as Satan do you? (Venus is the star in view here in both passages which is the first brightest star seen in the morning), but Adam is a type of the one to come, so having the same title isn't such a stretch.

Isa 14:16 Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,

as in Adam all die, through the one man came the transgression, a man made the earth tremble

He is also the king of babylon, babylon is the kingdom of this world, the fleshly desires vs. the kingdom of the spirit of the second man Christ the new Jerusalem (literal Jerusalem is called egypt and sodom)
Eze 28:12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Origin: from 08506
Reference: TWOT - 2511b
PrtSpch: noun feminime
In Hebrew: tynkt 2
In NET: pattern 1, perfection 1
In AV: sum 1, pattern 1
Count: 2
Definition: 1) measurement, pattern, proportion

heres the only other place this word is used in the bible
Eze 43:10 As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, so that they will be ashamed of their sins and measure the pattern.

what is the temple of God? Our body the living stones, and the whole temple the entire ecclesia (assembly), God does not dwell in temples made of human hands, adam is a type or pattern of Christ who was the tabernacle walking around
"and the word became flesh and tabernacled among us"

15“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.

John 8:44 You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

My attempt is to show the pattern. You will see the concepts of pattern, form, image associated with the tabernacle
I attempted to make this readable, its hard to keep in a straight line when all these lateral associations jump out, I didn't list every verse that each word studied brought back
1)American Standard Version EZE 43
1Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east. 2And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shined with his glory.
voice-revelation, from mount of olives, day star, sun arises
3And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city; and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
cherubim, in spirit, ate scroll, eze 1-3
4And the glory of Jehovah came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. 5And the Spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house.
spirit took me up, holy of holies is garden, inner court is banished to the east, gate blocked by cherubim
6And I heard one speaking unto me out of the house; and a man stood by me. 7And he said unto me, Son of man, this is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever.
dwell in the midst
And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, and by the dead bodies of their kings in their high places; 8in their setting of their threshold by my threshold, and their door-post beside my door-post, and there was but the wall between me and them; and they have defiled my holy name by their abominations which they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. 9Now let them put away their whoredom, and the dead bodies of their kings, far from me; and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

10Thou, son of man, show the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. 11And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, make known unto them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the egresses thereof, and the entrances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof; and write it in their sight; that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. 12This is the law of the house: upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
(form=tsurah h6699 is the feminine version of tsuwr h6697=rock as in God) (we are the bride, christ is our rock)
(also Tyre = rock and these all come from the same root 6696) (only use of H6699 in Bible)
(the word pattern is only used here and in the "lucifer" passage Eze 28)

2)dwell- in lxx its kataskeno g2681,from kata (throw down, stake down in the sense of more permanent) and skeno tent G4637

Here is what skeno is:
[Jhn 1:14 KJV] - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt[4637] among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. word=spirit, flesh=tent
[Rev 7:15 KJV] - Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell[4637] among them.
[Rev 12:12 KJV] - Therefore rejoice , [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell[4637] in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(do people actually live in the sea?)
[Rev 13:6 KJV] - And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell[4637] in heaven.
[Rev 21:3 KJV] - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying , Behold , the tabernacle[4633] of God [is] with men, and he will dwell[4637] with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

3)skeno 4637 is the verb of the noun 4636 tabernacle, these are the only two uses of 4636

[2Cr 5:1 KJV] - For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle[4636] were dissolved , we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2Cr 5:4 KJV] - For we that are in [this] tabernacle[4636] do groan , being burdened : not for that we would be unclothed , but clothed upon , that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

4)this comes from 4633 skene tabernacle 4633 is akin to skia 4639 (for unknown reasons to strong)
[Hbr 8:5 KJV] - Who serve unto the example (hypodiegma g5262) and shadow (skia 4639) of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle[4633]: for, See , saith he , [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

[Act 7:44 KJV] - Our fathers had the tabernacle[4633] of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed , speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion (typos g5179) that he had seen .
[Hbr 8:2 KJV] - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle[4633], which the Lord pitched , and not man.

[Hbr 9:3 KJV] - And after the second veil, the tabernacle[4633] which is called the Holiest of all;
[Hbr 9:8 KJV] - The Holy Ghost this signifying , that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest , while as the first tabernacle[4633] was yet standing:old testament/physical "literal"/old man/aaronic vs
[Hbr 9:11 KJV] - But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come , by a greater and more perfect tabernacle[4633], not made with hands, that is to say , not of this building; new testament/spiritual/new man/melkezedek
Rev 21 1 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[4633] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,b and God himself will be with them as their God. (who is the bride?)

5) skia [4639]
(Luke 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,)
[Luk 1:79 KJV] - To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow[4639] of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
[Mat 4:16 KJV] - The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow[4639] of death light is sprung up . (shadow of darkness is the law of sin and death, sprung up=arises same as 2 Pet 1:19 as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.)

[Mar 4:32 KJV] - But when it is sown , it groweth up , and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow[4639] of it. (speaking of the kingdom of heaven, which is at hand proclaimed Jesus)
[Col 2:17 KJV] - Which are a shadow[4639] of things to come ; but the body [is] of Christ.(talking about the OC, the literal)
[Hbr 8:5 KJV] - Who serve unto the example and shadow[4639] of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[Hbr 10:1 KJV] - For the law having a shadow[4639] of good things to come , [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect .

(The law, the ritual the physical temple are the shadow and not the very image (remember this word skia is related to tabernacle, the tabernacle is the shadow, the pattern)

[Rom 1:23 NASB] - and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image[1504] in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
[Rom 8:29 NASB] - For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image[1504] of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
[1Cr 11:7 NASB] - For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image[1504] and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
[1Cr 15:49 NASB] - Just as we have borne the image[1504] of the earthy, we will also bear the image[1504] of the heavenly.
[2Cr 3:18 NASB] - But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image[1504] from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. (transformed from the image of earthy/adam)
[2Cr 4:4 NASB] - in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image[1504] of God.
[Col 1:15 NASB] - He is the image[1504] of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
[Col 3:10 NASB] - and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image[1504] of the One who created him --
[Rev 13:14 NASB] - And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image[1504] to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
[Rev 13:15 NASB] - And it was given to him to give breath to the image[1504] of the beast, so that the image[1504] of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image[1504] of the beast to be killed.
(where is the image of the beast set up?, image of earthy vs image of heavenly, adam vs jesus) (Ecc all men are wild beasts)
(the number of the mark of the beast is 666 the number of man, anthropos,mankind)

7)hypodiegma 5262
[Jhn 13:15 KJV] - For I have given you an example[5262], that ye should do as I have done to you. (wash feet, pick up cross, die to self, enter into the holy of holies, enter into rest)
[Hbr 4:11 KJV] - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example[5262] of unbelief. (entering into rest=enter the holy of holies, speaking of the promised land, the Israelites didn't enter when they should have)
[Hbr 8:5 KJV] - Who serve unto the example[5262] and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[Hbr 9:23 KJV] - [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns[5262] of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.[/color]

8)type tupos G5179
[Rom 5:14 NASB] - Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type[5179] of Him who was to come.
[1Cr 10:6 NASB] - Now these things happened as examples[5179] for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. (the things here is everything in the OT)
[Phl 3:17 NASB] - Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern[5179] you have in us.
[1Th 1:7 NASB] - so that you became an example[5179] to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.
[/b] (christ is our pattern, as we grow up into the fullness of Christ we become the pattern for others)

9)“Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD:

“You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
[James 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
(the word likeness here is the same used for signet in LXX, it signifies a signet ring or stamp used to seal documents, we are the stamp of God, this is the only place this word appears in the NT)]

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,

same word for precious, look up H3368, the word is used almost all times of precious stones/materials to build, decorate, or fill the temple. Also compared to wisdom, and Christ (the light)

Isa 28:16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation: "One who trusts will not panic."

sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
(9 gems, 9 fruits of the spirit, 9 is the number of HS)(nearly all the uses of the gems listed are of that in the breastplate of the high priest, who is the great high priest? adam is a type of the one to come)

On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
(annointed, kings and rulers were annointed, messiah means annointed)

10)1 pet 2 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6For this is contained in Scripture:

(precious G1784 is used only of people and in this passage at all in the bible)

7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps (what was his example? to die to his flesh, enter the holy of holies through a new way, through his flesh)

11)I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.

1 cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
Next up the cherubim...

61 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:52 pm


Yeah, yeah YES !!!

Oh yeahh... cheribum.... Finally the truth is coming...

62 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:10 pm


This one is Carnal nature and the mark of the beast:

To get a better understanding of what the mark is I look up the word and here is the only other usage of mark in the bible besides the mark of the beast

Acts 17:29 NRSV
Since we are Gods offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image(mark) formed by the art and imagination of mortals.

Kind of interesting as we're contrasting Spirit(deity) with Physical(flesh). (I had listed a couple of the key verses that show this in an earlier post)

This passage is basically a summary of my viewpoint a cypher if you will.
1Cor 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Here is every instance of imagination G1761 imagination/ the desires of the heart/carnal mind the carnal mind brings forth the image
[Mat 9:4 ESV] - But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
[Mat 12:25 ESV] - Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
[Act 17:29 ESV] - Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
[Hbr 4:12 ESV] - For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

There are only really 2 usages of the word mark(charagma) the mark of the beast and Acts 17:29. Both are referring to idolatry vs. the True God. Physical vs spiritual.

Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
a (a is added) man is anthropos=mankind carbon is 6 protons 6 electrons 6 neutrons, six is the day of mans creation
Name signifies more than just the word "Nicholai" (a little "left behind" reference) scratched on someones hand or head. When we pray in the name of Jesus it isn't in the letters J E S U S, its what those letters represent. Its character or nature. And the nature of the number is mankind or Adam. As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. To those who overcome I will give a new name, a new nature. (how do we overcome? by the blood of the lamb, by picking up our cross and dying to our flesh, by the new and living way inaugurated by Jesus)

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments , and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (white garments=linen for priests, as opposed to wool/ coming from beasts)

Rev 15:2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.

There are 4 categories of usage here
1. the inscription on Caesars coin (give to caesar what is caesars). Caesar is a man who is a god Look at the context of this. In Matthew 22 its the story of the wedding banquet and the man being thrown out for not having his wedding clothes. The wedding clothes signify the man of heaven, clothed in righteousness. Then the caesar piece, natural vs. spiritual, then we're back to talking about the resurrection again. (1 cor quoted above). Mark 9 and Luke 20 have the same except the first part is the story of the tenants. The end quote Jesus uses is "the stone the builders rejected is the chief cornerstone" which is of course talking about the temple, and the temple is us, not some building made of gold or silver or of human hands (Heb 10:1). The rest of Mark and Luke narratives are basically identical.

2. Romans 1:23 exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the image of man, beasts, birds, creepers. What caused this exchange? They became futile in their thoughts, their minds, imaginations, and they were given up to the lusts of the flesh

3. Image of the man of heaven, who is the image of the invisible God. Contrasted with the image of the man of earth/dust/flesh

4. Image of the beast

I contend each of these categories is summed up as:
Image of the physical/creation vs. spiritual/creator, idol vs. true God

Where did the image of the beast get set up (the abomination of desolation)? In the holy of holies. Don't you know you are the temple of the Holy Spirit? A temple not built by human hands, which is only a shadow of the things to come, not the very image. Come let us be making man in our image. Do not be conformed to this world, but to the image of the Son who is the express image of God.

What is the theme of Revelation?
Rev 1: 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants––things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Signified=given in signs

Revelation=unveiling G601 The revelation of mystery, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. Even now this gospel is veiled, their minds are veiled, just as moses had to wear a veil to cover the glory which was fading, which is a type, as all these things happened for our example.

Isa 25
And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever

How? by throwing death into the lake of fire, who else is in the lake of fire but the beast and those with the image

The veil was torn, which is Christs flesh, the veil is death, the veil is over our minds, our minds our blinded by the god of this world so we will not see the glory, Christ in you is the hope of glory

The man of sin/perdition=antichrist/beast, Therefore, just as through one man (old man/earthy/dust) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned––, what is death again? the veil cast over all people, and sin was condemned in the FLESH

Chi Xi Stigma (666)
the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek
alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as numbers;
denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral:-six hundred
threescore and six.
see GREEK for 4742

Stigma G4742
1) a mark pricked in or branded upon the body. To ancient oriental
usage, slaves and soldiers bore the name or the stamp of their
master or commander branded or pricked (cut) into their bodies to
indicate what master or general they belonged to, and there were
even some devotee's who stamped themselves in this way with the
token of their gods

Here is the only use of stigma(4727)
[Gal 6:11 NKJV] - See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!
[Gal 6:12 NKJV] - As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these [would] compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
[Gal 6:13 NKJV] - For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
[Gal 6:14 NKJV] - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
[Gal 6:15 NKJV] - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision(old covenant/natural) nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation(new covenant/spiritual).
[Gal 6:16 NKJV] - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy [be] upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
[Gal 6:17 NKJV] - From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks[4742] of the Lord Jesus.
[Gal 6:18 NKJV] - Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with your spirit. Amen.
Here are all uses of 666 in the bible

2Ch 9:13
Solomon received 666 talents of gold per year, (1King 10:14 same thing) kings bringing gold into Jerusalem
I see this as a type of:
Rev 21 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor(wealth) of the nations.
-here is another usage of the word honor
1 cor 6:20 For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.
-the wealth the kings bring into the new jerusalem is those who have been tormented which we know is touchstone to test the purity of gold
(also in 2ch 9 is the description of an ivory throne overlaid with gold, only other reference to a white throne in bible)

Rev 13:18
This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast's number, for it is man's number, and his number is 666.

Ezr 2:13
the descendants of Adonikam: 666; Adonikam means "The Lord Arose"
Neh 7:18 is a paralel passage to the above, except the numbers are different (bigvai also has a diff number in Ezra 2:14)
the descendants of Adonikam, 667;
Neh 7:19 the descendants of Bigvai, 2,067; (why the number discrepancy? to link these two names together?)

These are the only two instances of 67 appearing in the bible except here
Neh 7:72 What the rest of the people gave amounted to 20,000 gold drachmas, 2,000 silver minas, and 67 priestly garments.

adonikam=the lord arose (the daystar arises in our hearts)
bigvai =in my body
67 priestly garments (white robes/new creation)

63 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:16 pm


Covering cast over all people:

Isa 25:6
The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.

7And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.

9And it will be said in that day,
“Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us.
This is the LORD for whom we have waited;
Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation.”

maccekah h4541

1) a pouring, libation, molten metal, cast image, drink offering
1a) libation (with covenant sacrifice)
1b) molten metal, molten image, molten gods
2) web, covering, veil, woven stuff

[Exd 32:4 NASB] - He took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool and made it into a molten[4541] calf; and they said, "This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt."
[Deu 27:15 NASB] - 'Cursed is the man who makes an idol or a molten[4541] image,[4541] an abomination to the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.' And all the people shall answer and say, 'Amen.'

This word is translated idol or molten image every other instance except one in Isa 30:1 its covering or taking counsel not of God

The word stretched means woven which is nacak H5259 which is identical to H5258 which is the root for H4541

Here we have the concept of weave which is present in many of the words for idol in Hebrew.
Such as in H5526 cakak
1) (Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in
2) to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover
a) (Qal)
1) to screen, cover
2) to cover oneself
3) protector (participle)
b) (Hiphil)
1) to screen, cover
2) to cover, defecate (euphemism)
3) (Qal) to cover, lay over
4) to weave together
a) (Qal) to weave together
b) (Pilpel) to weave, weave together

[Exd 25:20 NASB] - "The cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering[5526] the mercy seat with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the cherubim are to be turned toward the mercy seat.
[Exd 33:22 NASB] - and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover[5526] you with My hand until I have passed by.
[Exd 40:3 NASB] - "You shall place the ark of the testimony there, and you shall screen[5526] the ark with the veil.
[Job 10:11 NASB] - Clothe me with skin and flesh, And knit[5526] me together[5526] with bones and sinews?
[Psa 139:13 NASB] - For You formed my inward parts; You wove[5526] me in my mother's womb.

Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

H5520 Cok comes from 5526
1) thicket, lair, covert, booth

[Psa 27:5 NASB] - For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle[5520]; In the secret place of His tent He will hide me; He will lift me up on a rock.
[Psa 76:2 NASB] - His tabernacle[5520] is in Salem; His dwelling place also is in Zion.

H5521 cukkah comes from H5520 Cok
1) thicket, covert, booth
a) thicket
b) booth (rude or temporary shelter)

[Lev 23:34 NASB] - "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'On the fifteenth of this seventh month is the Feast of Booths[5521] for seven days to the LORD.
[Job 36:29 NASB] - "Can anyone understand the spreading of the clouds, The thundering of His pavilion[5521]?
[Amo 9:11 NASB] - "In that day I will raise up the fallen booth[5521] of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;

Acts 15:14“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,


H4539 macak from H5526
1) covering, rag, screen
a) covering
b) screen (of the tabernacle)

[Exd 40:21 NASB] - He brought the ark into the tabernacle, and set up a veil for the screen,[4539] and screened off the ark of the testimony, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
[Psa 105:39 NASB] - He spread a cloud for a covering,[4539] And fire to illumine by night.

Luke 21:27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
1 Co 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Jude 1:12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 Co 3: 12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Kaluma G2571 comes from Kalupto G2572

1 Co 13: 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly(in an enigma), but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

The word mirror is esoptron, from eis(into) and optanomai (behold something remarkable) Almost every instance of optanomai is of seeing the risen Lord

Rom 8: 1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

apokolupsis G602
[Rom 8:19 NASB] - For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing[602] of the sons of God.
[Rom 16:25 NASB] - Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation[602] of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
[Eph 3:3 NASB] - that by revelation[602] there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
[Rev 1:1 NASB] - The Revelation[602] of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

G602 comes from G601 apokolupto, which is apo+kalupto(G2572)

[Luk 17:30 NASB] - "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed[601].
[Rom 8:18 NASB] - For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed[601] to us.
[Gal 1:16 NASB] - to reveal[601] His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
[Eph 3:5 NASB] - which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed[601] to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
The unveiling of Jesus Christ is the removal of the covering cast over all people, which is death. Death is swallowed up in victory, by Jesus who overcame death by His death. The tearing of the veil in the temple happened as His flesh was torn. The veil is a woven covering, covered with cherubs. The covering cast over all people is a woven covering. The cherubs cover, the clouds cover, the veil covers, our flesh covers, the tabernacle covers.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

64 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:35 pm


Talk about having a full bucket!!

But I do love this one you posted . . .

Ezr 2:13
the descendants of Adonikam: 666; Adonikam means "The Lord Arose"

The resurrection of Christ (Lord arose) birthed . . .MAN. The resurrection is in our DNA. Wow.

65 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:53 pm


Ok, that is huge.. and too much for me to address at one time..I know, I know what you are thinking Mark.

Let’s talk about that wisdom. If any many have wisdom, hopefully we have a little by now.

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

This number is really broad and has a tremendous number of meanings. When we see numbers in triple, we should consider that this is multi-dimensional. In this case it is a number of a man, but it is a beast man. The verse alone states it clearly. Says it both ways….number of the beast, number of a man.

Hmmmm.. where is there a beast man in the word? A ha ! Here is one…

Dan 4:23
23 “And inasmuch as the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze in the tender grass of the field; let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let him graze with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him’; 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king:

Isn’t that great? Let me tell you, in the corporate sense, there are seven days that pass over humanity until the beast is removed. Human is an abbreviated word meaning hewn down man. God created “man” is his image, but when Adam fell, he was as the beasts of the field. Thinking himself to be God, he forfeited the mind of Christ and became beastly.

666 is a number representing man in three dimensions. The three dimensions of man are spirit, soul, and body. This number is the number of man in all three dimensions, and if you are so inclined, 6 is one step short of the rest of God, which is 7 (Sabbath).

Man tries his best to enter the rest, but cannot (Heb 4)…. Not without God anyways. It takes the spirit of the Lord to accomplish this… a guarantee of things to come, even Christ. Interestingly, those who are of Christ are also marked, just with a seal of the Spirit.

I find it interesting that the gematria of Christ is 888. This is a new beginning in spirit, soul, and body, which the bible calls out explicitly.

SPIRIT: John 3: 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

SOUL: Romans 12:2 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

BODY: 1 Cor 15:25 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

If I wanted to be silly or reckless here, I would point out that the average of 666 and 888 is 777. Hey, why not? Christ in you is the hope of glory. Col 1:27 – Christ in you works perfection in all three dimensions, but hey you are getting this for free so don’t shout me down. (I just made that up for fun, but Father is tricky I think…)

Anyway, back to the mark. Notice they take it in their hands or forehead. I personally feel the Lord instructed me that this was the thinking or the providing for one’s self. When the ark (Christ) was stolen and placed in the temple of Dagon in Ashdod, the idol was thrown down before the ark. When they propped it up again, the idol was thrown down yet again, but this time a message came with it.

1 Sam 5:4 And when they arose early the next morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the ground before the ark of the LORD. The head of Dagon and both the palms of its hands were broken off on the threshold; only Dagon’s torso was left of it.

Here we have head and hands again, which is a mark of a beast. Dagon means grain, but in Aramaic, it means to be split open. Judas, the epitome of providing for one’s self, is split open when he dies (Acts 1:18). Iscariot means “man of Kerioth”, so we again see the theme of ‘man’. In Aramaic, the root word of Iscariot means to deliver. You can’t make this stuff up, I tell ya.

The ark being captured by the gentiles was an egregious event; I bet the hearts of men in Jerusalem failed them. A man from Benjamin went running to tell the news. When he did, he reached Eli and the high priest fell over backward and broke his neck, and keep in mind his two sons were dead. The priesthood of the family of Eli was being cut off, just like it would be much later. Sound familiar? The event of the Ark going to the gentiles was the very same thing that began to topple the dying priesthood in Jerusalem. Even Peter had trouble with this, but Paul another Benjamite messenger, surely took the news to the gentiles. That news first arrived at Cornelius’ house which was the Ark of God was a moving thing (restoration of David’s fallen tent), moving about to and fro in the earth. Just now in a different form as a Holy Spirit rather than a box of gold. The overthrow of the priesthood culminated in 70 AD as you know. This Ark causes the overthrow of the personal (mark of the beast) and the corporate (the priesthood) levels.

What became of Judas?

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;

And now you know the rest of the story.

This was certainly true of Judas’ ministry, but also true on the corporate scale when the last enemy death is overcome by the Lamb. There is a day coming when no man will any longer dwell in the place of Judas and his house will become desolate.

66 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:23 pm


(Quote Todd,)
God created “man” is his image, but when Adam fell, he was as the beasts of the field. Thinking himself to be God, he forfeited the mind of Christ and became beastly. (End Quote)

Evidently I'm the only one on here who is having a hard time with this Phrase, can ya'll please help me to understand, how Adam could have been made in the Image of God, having the mind of Christ, and fall from that place?

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Adam was a figure of Him that was to come, not the very image.
Christ is the image of God.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

To me Adam is our Beginning made from the dust of the Ground, the same Ground that the serpent came from. Christ is our End, sent from the Heavens, above.

If Adam was created in God's Image (which is Christ) and had His mind, then what keeps us from falling from that place? Do all of you think that Adam had the Holy Spirit abiding in Him?
I don't mean to be contentious, I truly do want to understand this, and at this point I am struggling with this.

Now, if in His image means body, soul, and spirit, in General, that I can receive, but to have the attributes of God, which to me has come to define His image, well, this is hard to grasp, that Adam ever had these. Knowledge, wisdom, etc. yes, but that to me is NOT, the Image and Likeness of God.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

This mist is so different from the rain that Paul speaks of in Heb. 6:7 that I posted above, or the rain that is listed from God in verse 5 right here.



67 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:23 pm


Scherryl wrote:can ya'll please help me to understand, how Adam could have been made in the Image of God, having the mind of Christ, and fall from that place?

What an astute question! I did not even think about this! Todd mentioned that there would be issues, and also promised answers would be forthcoming. Very Happy

We are taught that man was made in God's image, but did Adam truly have the mind of Christ? I cannot see this. Doesn't your passage from Hebrews speak of the impossibility of those who have been delivered from death "backsliding" again, whereas Adam fell before he had tasted death? Jesus taught us:

Joh 12:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.

This death appears to be essential to God's plan for us taking on the mind of Christ. I don't know how Adam could be said to have had wisdom, before he had experience. How could he have known the love of God if he had not yet been forgiven much?

68 Re: The Matrix on Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:45 pm



This was one of the first questions I had when realizing the implications of the manifest sons. Whats to say it won't happen again, a fall.

Adam hadn't experienced the serpent which means to learn by experience (that was Taffy's Nate). Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered.

I don't really know, its not fully clear. We can't forget that the creation was subjected to futility also.

69 Re: The Matrix on Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:21 am


When I read your question, I laughed out loud. I was completely deer in the headlights. Then when I saw David’s response, I laughed again. He totally picked up immediately on how profound that question was. I thought how glorious!!!

Well, I had no answer for sure and had to go pray about it.

This is what the Lord is leading me into:

The two sons were Adam and Jesus, as we all know. The first Adam fell and the second Adam did not fall. His fall was actually the first fall and not of His own making. I have asked a silly questions many times to people to trick them. Who was the greatest sinner of all? Answer: Jesus.

The reason being that “He was made sin, that we might be made the righteousness of Christ.” Now, we first believe this in a superficial way. Then after much revelation of His Christ, we began to realize that there was a genuine transfer of sin from us who committed the sin, to Him who had no sin. Though He was rich, He was made poor that we might be made rich. We were made.

So Jesus also experienced a fall although it was not because He sinned. That would be impossible because sin is anything that is contrary to Him and He cannot be contrary to Himself. His mind, however, experienced a veil. He perceived the Father had forsaken Him, but could that be true? I do not think so. It was the same blindness (darkness) that Adam experienced when He attempted to make himself God.

So, all things are possible.

I think your question has a flaw though. You are assuming that having the mind of Christ would make it impossible for you to fall from grace. That is simply not true. In a round about way, I just showed how Christ Himself had experienced the same darkness.

Maybe the question is better put, how could Adam sin if he had the mind of Christ? Wouldn’t that prevent sin? Maybe so. This is what the Lord reminded me when I prayed last night.

Access to heavenly realms Adam did have, but there is one thing that Adam did not have that made him different than the Christ. It was identity.

Adam was very much created in the image of God, but when the tempter came, the temptation was in a form that was contrary “to what God said”. This will almost always be the case. Remember I said how important it was to have a revelation of Satan? He twists things. What was light is now dark. What is high is now low…and so forth. God spoke and Adam was created. He was created in the image of God. That is what God said. The serpent said that Adam was not like God, and needed to become like God by feasting on the tree of knowledge. Adam should have said, “Evidently snake! You didn’t hear what my daddy just said!!!” He did not, and thus rejected what God had said by eating from the tree. He likely did not know that he already had what he was trying to gain.

Adam was tempted by the fruit in three ways. Body, soul and spirit if you will. The third is connected to reigning because wisdom is always connected with kingship. i.e. The wisdom of Solomon 1 Kings 10:23.

Genesis 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate

Moving forward in time Jesus is also tempted three ways in the desert, very much in the same way. Expectedly, he would have to face the same three deadly challenges that Adam faced. As you all know, He did not fail, and there was a reason for this.

Mat 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He[c] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

The difference between Adam #1, and Adam #2 was that Jesus knew who He was. Before being tempted, Father told Him very clearly that Jesus was His son. Then when the temptation came in the form to be God under one’s own effort, it would not shake Him. His identity was clear.

Both had the mind, but only one had the identity.

As for us, it is the same. As a man thinketh, so is he. You won’t betray what you believe about yourself, so it is important to let the Lord establish that belief in you based on His perspective. Then nothing can shake you and you will never fall from that place.

70 Re: The Matrix on Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:57 am


I think if we stepped back a couple paces and took a look at the bigger picture here it may answer some of these AWESOME questions you guys brought up. Did Adam actually "fall" . . ."could" he actually fall . . .what's to keep it from happening again . . .

Jesus stated himself that HE is the VOLUME OF THE BOOK. And the events that took place, the people that were involved . . .it's all TYPE AND SHADOW of the volume of the book. Yeah, Adam is a type . .. we've discussed it at length. The mist that arises up from the earth . . it's another type indicating the spirit IN US that cleanses the FACE (identity) of our earth . . .our earthy nature.

But the bottom line here . . .this is ALL manifesting according to one single purpose. The reason for not just Scripture, that's a documentation of the evidence, but for ALL mankind, we're also written epistles, we're all note pads that God writes his memos on. The purpose of the creation of man is to manifest love. Love, in order for it to manifest, needs a recipient.

God didn't create us just so he could love "us". We are not the volume of the book. He created us so he could manifest his love upon his Son. Everything that has happened, has been by divine design. What's to keep it from happening again? There's only one Lord. There's only one Christ. This is only a one-time deal. The reason for the fall wasn't really even in Adam's hands as much as we give him credit for.

The fall had to happen in order for Jesus to be lifted up. No fall, no reason for him to be our redeemer. But now that it has happened and Adam "did" fall and Jesus "did" raise him back up . . .there is no "what if" for it to happen again. It didn't happen by circumstance the first time, it was by design and to put it simply . . .it .. is . . . finished.

71 Re: The Matrix on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:00 am


cross-eyed wrote:He created us so he could manifest his love upon his Son.

It just doesn't get any more beautiful than this.

72 Re: The Matrix on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:29 am


DavidHarreld wrote:
cross-eyed wrote:He created us so he could manifest his love upon his Son.

It just doesn't get any more beautiful than this.

You got that right Brother!!


73 Re: The Matrix on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:36 am


Scherryl wrote:can ya'll please help me to understand, how Adam could have been made in the Image of God, having the mind of Christ, and fall from that place?

So....when Moses wrote in Gen 1:27 that God created man in His image, was he speaking of what He had already done? Or was He speaking the end from the beginning? I came to see this whole 'process' as something that went like this. In the eternity of God's mind, He sat down with Himself and pondered how He would create for Himself a family, or replicate Himself if you will. Upon coming to a conclusion of the matter, He spoke it into existence in time and space and put into play His plan of doing just that. The creation of man in His image could not be done without Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this would give Him preeminence. The only way the Holy Spirit could come was by the subjection of man unto bondage (sin), man's recognition of that bondage, a sacrifice for the effect of that bondage and an acknowledgement of man for the need of that sacrifice (recognition of his fallen state). As a result, a way was made for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in man that was not available to Adam. The two becoming one. This was how God was making man in His image. Which he is doing but which is done already from God's perspective for are we not already seated with Him in heavenly places? Is not our life already hidden in Him?

The day will come when sin will no longer have it's effect upon the sons of God. The man of perdition will be revealed, understood and rendered ineffective. This will happen in the fulness of time when it was purposed in the Father's will as it manifests in time and space. We will be in a place where we will not fall again because of our being the tabernacle of God. Call it heaven if you want or the full stature of Christ or whatever, I just see it as the finished work of Christ.

Is God doing something in Christ that he did not do in Adam? I just have a hard time with the tradition that what this is about is merely getting us back to where we started from. What's the point of all that? Unless where we started from was a place in God that we could not abide or remain in unless we went through a fall/redemption that would remove from us the propensity to fall.

I love this topic by the way......drives religious devils bonkers.

74 Re: The Matrix on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:59 am


Praise God, Praise God!!! Thank you Kevin, I was just about to give up hope on getting my point of view to be understood and you just put it into a perfect Word.

That is EXACTLY the way I see it too.

Yes, Yes, according to God's perspective, seeing how He views things from the End of the Matter, it is Finished, but if we look at Adam in the Garden, without including the Christ as the Complete Pattern, I think we can get into some places that later on may cause problems.

God calls those things "that be not" as though they were.
And through Faith we can see just like He see's, it is Finished.

The creation of man in His image could not be done without Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this would give Him preeminence.


Is God doing something in Christ that he did not do in Adam? I just have a hard time with the tradition that what this is about is merely getting us back to where we started from. What's the point of all that? Unless where we started from was a place in God that we could not abide or remain in unless we went through a fall/redemption that would remove from us the propensity to fall.

Amen, Amen, This is my thoughts, why couldn't I say it like that?

Beautifully Put Kevin,
Thank you so much, you have no idea how much this means to me, really, only He knows.

Crying like a baby, tears of Joy unspeakable.


75 The Matrix on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:20 pm


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, H6754 after our likeness:H1823

Unless we look harder at the words: "image" or "likeness" I think that we will not understand that Adam in the garden is not the Christ on the seventh day of the 7,000 years. One day with Lord is like or as a 1,000 years. "Like" or "as" are similes and are not the same as the real. Adam was not God and probably knew it for he walked with God in the cool of the day. As the moon to the sun, he could reflect the light of the sun but was not himself the light.

The word for image is:

BDB Definition:
1) image
1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
1b) image, likeness (of resemblance)
1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (figuratively)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root meaning to shade
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1923a

An image or picture can show a lot about what is pictured or shown but is not itself the same thing as the object pictured. So too Adam, he had "breath" and the tree of life was available to him but as even nature declares, the seed must fall in order to die and regenerate. Adam was the seed of humanity and carried in his loins the DNA of all but Jesus. His "fall" was not accidental but was predetermined as part of the process of creation...a process that I believe is ongoing to this very day.

Look also at the word "likeness":

BDB Definition:
1) likeness, similitude (noun feminine)
2) in the likeness of, like as (adverb)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1819
Same Word by TWOT Number: 437a

Once again a word meaning "like" or "as" and not the same. Being centered in self is the issue of all of the devil's temptations. God...God who is love itself...has determined to have a people who will give Him pleasure because their nature will be His nature. They will think not of themselves but will be those that lay down their lives for others. Becoming one with God is not the process of returning to the garden...as lovely as that was. It is the process of making the wilderness into a garden through love. We are becoming one even as Jesus and His Father are one. That is a different ballgame from what Adam knew. Our destiny is into a realm that is exceedingly, abundantly above all that we can ask or even imagine. It is far far above the realm of the mind of man for eye has not seen nor ear heard the things that God has prepared for those who love Him. As glorious as Adam was in the garden, there is a surpassing glory...our God has saved the best for last.

Sponsored content

Back to top  Message [Page 3 of 4]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum