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Daniel 8

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1 Daniel 8 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:13 pm


1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

It appears that Daniel had four major visions that he kind of separates from the others. We've been through the first one and are now taking a look at the second. And I don't know how often I'll do this, but I feel I need to remind you that what "we" are looking for here is not a literal piecing together. In fact, at the end of this chapter, you'll see that Gabriel explains what literally is to happen.

But again, what "we" are looking for is how this story unfolds with the two men in us . . .the first Adam, being our flesh, and the last Adam, being our spirit. And yes, without trying to confuse things, my last Adam can also be depicted as my Eve, my woman, my soul, my mind . . .these are all merely different "angles" seeing the same thing, the nature of man. Just as the Last Adam is the same as what Adam is when you're comparing Adam with Eve. Yeah, I know, I can make this look more complicated than what it is.

But it's kind of to serve another point as well and that is when we get into discussions with one another, on or off the forum, where both people are accurate in their own rights but both people were seeing the same thing from different dimensions . . . clear as mud?

Why am I going through Daniel like this? Because I believe the entire Bible can, and for me, should be read this way. Rather than trying to "manually" live by the letter of the law. . .or trying to live according to what our minds interpret Scripture to be saying on the surface, if we would instead pursue the message to the man in us . . ."message to the man" . . .that could be a song! At any rate, if we would pursue the message to the man in us, that process would actually align our man and woman so that our lives would reflect what Scripture says a believer looks like. It's a spiritual experience rather than a mental mind-set.

Having said that . . .the question arose in me on the 2nd verse . .. "why" is Daniel explaining "where" he was when he had this vision. So I looked up some of the names he dropped before explaining the vision.

Shushan = Lily (in the palace at)
Elam = eternity (in the province 0f)
Ultai = my leaders (by the river)

He was next to a river . . .which represents what? The Spirit. "In" the province of eternity. . .an ascended place. In a Palace of lilies . . .they don't toil or spin and God is . .. tending to a lily in his garden.

Now, in this picture of serenity, we're about to see some uglies manifest. In that quiet place where you find refuge within yourself, you ever sit in church during a sermon or worship and all of the sudden you get bombarded by outlandish thoughts flying through your brain??? Yeah . .same thing.

A spiritual escalator arrives at verse three . . .do you have any idea how many times "this" occurs throughout Scripture? Daniel "looks up". Revelation comes when you look "up". That's where we're called to walk . . .in the ascended place. Our mind sees an ascended place and immediately gets puffed up, haughty, arrogant, but when our spirit sees it, the nature of the Father is revealed.

A ram appears and the emphasis is on the two horns. Yeah, that's Greece and Persia . . .but that's not where we want to go is it? No, what "I" see here are two main characters, a ram and a river. The river is constant, it's the spirit of life in us. The ram . . .the horns resemble power, strength, might . . .but also, it's a "ram". It's not a goat. When you think of "ram" what do you think of? I think of Abraham and Isaac. It was a ram that took the place of Abraham's son. It's a type and shadow of Christ.

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Okay, what's missing here? It does't list "four" directions, only "three". Hmmm . . .ever wonder "why"? Maybe because there's a HUGE difference in patterns between the number "3" and the number "4". This is a RAM next to a RIVER and it's expanding in THREE directions, nothing was more powerful, nothing could even compare and it became great, it was in control. Anything???

What if we also threw in the fact that these horns, a sign of power and might, the latter one grew to be the larger one; anything popping into your thoughts now? Doesn't Jesus say that the LEAST will be the GREATEST? The LAST will be FIRST?? Where does that happen at? IN THE KINGDOM.

And if "that" doesn't do it for you, remember what these stories are always about? Two men, the first Adam and the last Adam . . .and the Last Adam, even though he manifests after the first Adam, he obviously has greater power over the first.

For me, this is the garden of Eden all over again. Serenity, God expands throughout and nothing can challenge his power. Everything is in order. But then, a new player arrives in our theater within us. These ascended places always seem to get interrupted with some stupid carnal thing at one point or another. You ever find yourself in a place of worship and all of the sudden you get bombarded by outside thoughts . . .ever? Maybe it's just me.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

So, the things that jump out at me here are, one, the obvious, a goat has come on the scene. Two, it comes from the west, which you could say has to to with rest in the "setting of the son" but in this case, I would maybe have to go past the sunset and into the darkness .. .this goat is not here to have a cup of tea with you.

Next, the eye, where is it? "what" is it" The eyes are the windows to my . . .SOUL. And the fact that "this" eye is BETWEEN the horns indicates that the focus of the goat is power. And another thing that jumps out is the word "face". For me, "face" is connected to "identity. This goat came out of the west on the "face" of the whole "earth" and there's the key .. .it's connected to things of the earth . .carnality has crept in to our garden of serenity . . .this wonderful, peaceful . .where is it? Oh . .ETERNAL place of rest has been interrupted by a destructive nature . . WITHIN US.

In Scripture, it speaks about a separation between the sheep and the goats. The goats represent chaff, wood, straw, clay . . .everything that can not survive the fire of Truth. That's the goat in us.

2 Re: Daniel 8 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:23 pm



6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand

How could this happen? Was God not strong enough to withstand carnality's force? You know that TERRIBLE song "Who let the dogs out?!!" The real question is, "Who let the goat in?" The ONLY way carnality can remove the spiritual power from within us, is by OUR permission.

When you get totally mad at a person, what you are really doing is, you are giving them your peace. It's not something they can take from you. It's a decision, whether it be conscious or subconscious, it's still "your" decision.

Note also, it again connected the Ram with the River. The reiteration of the fact that this is a picture of the first Adam attacking the last Adam. And because "I" allowed it, like Peter, I took my eyes off of Christ and as the goat was loosed, I immediately began to sink.

When the Ram was taking the land, there was no fury mentioned. It was taking the land because "you" were in spiritual alignment and that's what happens. But then, we get distracted, we give in to temptation, we let the goat loose and immediately, like a mad dog, the goat attacks the ram in us.

so . .what is "choler"? It means bitter rage. Just so ya know. 'That's" the personality of the carnality in us. The moment we let it loose, it's bent in killing the light in us. It's first objective is to remove the power of the one ruling our land. And now that it's loose, "it's" going to do some expanding of it's own.

When we see other people in bondage, it tears them up inside. "This" is a picture of exactly what it is doing the tearing. It could be anything from religion to hate to booze to sex . . .our flesh is addictive by nature when there's no ram at our river within. When we pray over others who we see in these places of terrible suffering and torment within themselves . . .envision this battle and call forth the ram to reestablish it's reign within them . . .see what happens.

3 Re: Daniel 8 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:02 pm


8 The goat became very powerful. But at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off. In the large horn’s place grew four prominent horns pointing in the four directions of the earth. 9 Then from one of the prominent horns came a small horn whose power grew very great. It extended toward the south and the east and toward the glorious land of Israel. 10 Its power reached to the heavens, where it attacked the heavenly army, throwing some of the heavenly beings and some of the stars to the ground and trampling them. 11 It even challenged the Commander of heaven’s army by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple. 12 The army of heaven was restrained from responding to this rebellion. So the daily sacrifice was halted, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did.

Imagery can be so distracting at times. Keep in the spirit while reading this. Even though our minds just automatically begin throwing up images of what "it thinks", or what "it reasons" the passage to be saying. The truth is, these events again have already happened. So if we just focus on that, the events, then we walk away with a history lesson at best and nothing that our spirit can find that will strengthen it's bond with the Father with.

But when we let the Father reveal to us the inward battle that is happening, it brings it into relevance and current state. When "we" can see what is truly happening within us, we can then direct the Father's power to the battle fronts our our inward wars and that's where freedom lies. The battle isn't ours, it's the Lords, yes? But . . .the battle does exist and it plays out in every one of us. Is it any wonder that so many people find themselves in such depressions they turn to suicides . .. or drugs, or booze.

Once the goat is loosed in us, it's the same story in Scripture with the serpent in the garden . .. it's merely a snake in the beginning, but by the time Revelation is manifesting, the serpent has become a dragon. How? Because "we've" allowed it to grow. This thing Daniel is seeing is God showing us that when you let the power of carnality have the freedom, it morphs into such a deadly force that it attacks the very kingdom within you. The spiritual relationship you have with the father, it attacks.

The daily sacrifices ... don't take that literally, it's not talking about the idea that if you don't sacrifice something to God every day that the devil is gonna jump on you. It means that if the goat in us isn't taken into captivity by the dominion given to us from the garden, it will greatly affect our daily walk with the Father. Our communion, our fellowship, our relationship.

Again, this isn't something we're to be distraught over, it's merely a revelation of the process of how the human nature works once it's left to it's own choices. Which leads us to the next couple verses.

13 Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?”

14 The other replied, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be made right again.”

Remember what the true temple is that we're talking about? Paul said it . . .YOU are the temple and the rebellion and desecration that tramples on heaven's army is the war transpiring IN YOU and heaven's army that it speaks of is the same as the kingdom that is within us that Jesus refers to.

Now, verse 14 . . .what does your mind do with that? Doesn't it want to know what LENGTH OF TIME that actually is? I'll save you from doing the math . . . because the old calendar wasn't what it is now . .. in fact, I'm pretty sure that there weren't 12 months like there is now either. None of that came to be until "after" all of this happened . .. so you'd really need to have "their" calendar if you wanted to measure it. But if you tried, you'd already find yourself off track.

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITHIN IS NOT CONFINED TO NATURAL TIME AND SPACE. And as such, it can't be measured by our measurements of time. If you want to apply it literally, then you need to use THEIR literal calendar. But that's not our purpose here. We're not looking for a LITERAL INTERPRETATION. We're looking for a SPIRITUAL APPLICATION.

So what does all this really mean to us inwardly? It means that even though the goat has been loosed, even though he's invaded the land that was once blessed by the power of the kingdom of heaven within us, and even though it's multiplying and attacking the very kingdom within . . .IT'S TEMPORARY. It's not a permanent experience. It's not an eternal state of destruction. It's merely the result of what happens when man chooses to embrace his own lusts and desires rather than letting the power of the Father be loosed on these destructive natures that carnality has infiltrated inside us.

As bleak as things appear . .. even in the description, there is ALWAYS a message of hope and not just survival, but a conquering when it's all said and done. The key is, when the goats are loosed and your life is falling apart all around you . . .know that it's not staying . . .and look AHEAD, keep your eyes fixed on what's to come, not on what "is".

4 Re: Daniel 8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:56 pm


15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”

Probably shouldn't even start this, as I only have a couple minutes. But remember when we first started this, we addressed the location . . .positioning may be a better word.

He is in a palace called "lily" located in a place meaning "eternity" and the river meaning "my leaders". And as we are slowly progressing through these visions, we use the signs and symbols given to point to greater things that lie beneath the surface of what our minds can comprehend, yes? Well . . .this river now speaks. The river instructs Gabriel to unveil the meaning of the vision.

Can you imagine Daniel seeing a literal river while these visions unfold, then Gabriel shows up and the river speaks. Daniel doesn't have what we have, he doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him speaking and unveiling mysteries and hidden treasures of the Father's nature. He has visions, but no reassurance of what he's seeing. So he does what any red-blooded man does . . .he faints.

17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

Last edited by cross-eyed on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:00 am; edited 1 time in total

5 Re: Daniel 8 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:58 am


17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

Again, this isn't a story about a prophet who fainted. Look deeper. The message (angel) came "near", it "advanced" toward, closer to where Daniel had been "standing". Body language speaks volumes. Remember what the abomination of desolation is doing in the temple? He's standing. It's not a submissive posture. But in Daniel's case, the moment the message comes to him, his legs let go of him.

"while he was speaking" Daniel, the man, died. Flesh can not support itself when truth comes on to the scene. Again, there's that word "face". It's to the ground. The identity of Daniel's being is earth-bound. not his spirit, but his carnal nature.

Remember what we talked about in reference to "alignment" within ourselves? The operation of the spirit in me and the soul in me is just like the act of intimacy between a man and a woman. This is very important we see this. In order for the seed of life to be released by the man, into the woman, "she" must "submit" to him . . .it's not a control thing, it's an intimate embrace kind of thing. She must "allow" him to enter her to release the seed of life.

If he forces himself upon her without her approval, the seed is still released, but under a defiling order rather than an act of love. Religion doesn't care how the seed is released, so long as it's released. I remember back in the Brownsville revival days, they were being interviewed about some of the unusual methods of their altar calls and the response was, they didn't care "how" people came to Jesus, so long as they came to him. Really?

Of course I ask that now . . .at the time I nodded adamantly in approval of the answer.

What does this have to do with Daniel? Everything, because his reaction to the approaching messenger speaks volumes. Look at what happened when he collapsed .. .

Then he touched me [b]and raised me

Resurrection. Daniel was taken to an ascended place because the order within him was in total alignment . . ."this" is pure intimacy at it's finest. His soul totally and completely gave it's self to the message that was coming near him.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the latter time of the indignation; for it belongeth to the appointed time of the end.

This is what the seed of life in us does . . .when our soul submits to our spirit . .. it's why Adam stated "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, ... Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh

It's a marriage taking place within us. It's what God has joined together and no man can ever separate. So what happens when the seed of life is released in the womb of man? My mind is my womb . . .when the spirit sews the seed within my mind . . .it births UNDERSTANDING. See, our minds do play a role in this relationship . . .just not at the conception. Understanding doesn't come through learning facts, it comes through birthing of life from within, through intimacy with the Father. Understanding has come to Daniel.

Because again, this vision has already unfolded in the natural sense ... these things transpired when Jesus arrived. Remember, he himself said, "it's finished". That covered a whoooole lot of stuff. Including these prophecies. What ended was the religious system. That was Israel's face . . . her identity. These destructive natures Daniel is seeing in these visions are not eternal characters. We've already seen how some of them are thrown into the river . . .Revelation identifies it as the lake of fire. It's all one and the same . . .God "is" the river and the lake of fire.

As we see an explanation of this vision, the animals represent the natures of the men ruling the earth of that day. But as these characters manifest, they are from the same mold as the carnality in every one of us. "That's" why this is so relevant to us now. It births understanding to our own nature so we can then exercise the authority every one of these examples proclaims that we have. This one is no different.

20 The ram which thou sawest, that had the two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 And as for that which was broken, in the place whereof four stood up, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not with his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper and do his pleasure; and he shall destroy the mighty ones and the holy people.

Notice this king has great power and he even kills the holy ones . . .but . . .it's not his own power. Do you know what power in you has great power, but it's power is not it's own? It's not "you", it's the carnality in you. Do you know where it get's it's power from? You. The power it is using is power that YOU gave to it. The dominion given to us in the garden for the purpose of subduing our earth, instead of utilizing it for the purpose intended, we give it to our Eve and she feeds us forbidden fruit.

Our mind, when given power, can, will, and does . .. destroy us if it's not taken captive by the spirit within us. Take captive your thoughts . . .2 Corinthians tells us that our spirit is to take captive our thoughts. or . . pin your hair up!

Ever watch those romantic movies and the man and woman finally get alone and you know where it's all heading . . .and as he watches her in the dimly lit room, the first thing she does is . . .she let's her hair down. It's a form of seduction. Now, don't take that to the extreme and think that any time a woman goes out with her hair down it's a disgrace or what have you. But in the setting of intimacy, have you ever seen them be intimate and keep the hair up in a bun? Yikes!!!

But as we've mentioned before, our thoughts and one's hair in Scripture go hand-in-hand. Sampson is an interesting story when you go back and read it in this light . . .really opens up some stuff there. But these beast, it has power that isn't his. And he can understand "dark" sentences.

Dark implies lack of, or absence of understanding. Spiritually speaking . . .I might play with this one some more later, but I'm out of time for tonight. Blessings.

6 Re: Daniel 8 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:41 pm


Our mind, when given power, can, will, and does . .. destroy us if it's not taken captive by the spirit within us. Take captive your thoughts . . .2 Corinthians tells us that our spirit is to take captive our thoughts. or . . pin your hair up!

I so enjoyed your message Bro N , and agree and agree again !!

7 Re: Daniel 8 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:51 pm


Thanks Rose! It's been kinda quiet lately, it's good so see you out and about.

8 Re: Daniel 8 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:37 am


Wow . . .I've been here at work since 11 today . . .totally expected to get through quite a bit and here it is 9:30 almost and I haven't even put anything up today yet. Crazy day.

25 He will be a master of deception and will become arrogant; he will destroy many without warning. He will even take on the Prince of princes in battle, but he will be broken, though not by human power.

Hmmm . .the master of deception . . .what did Genesis say about the serpent? The most subtle of all the beasts in the field. Deception is it's playground. "We" are the greener grass on the other side of it's fence. But seriously, our own mind is the master of deception and the way it destroys is without warning is by merely approaching us inwardly with slow, methodic motions toward the dethroning of our godly nature within. To the point of bringing our spirit into bondage.

Now . . .doesn't it all become so obvious when you read that it's going to be broken but not by human power? It's not by might, nor by power . . .but by his Spirit. Isn't this what we've been saying all along??

26 “This vision about the 2,300 evenings and mornings[f] is true. But none of these things will happen for a long time, so keep this vision a secret.”
27 Then I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for several days. Afterward I got up and performed my duties for the king, but I was greatly troubled by the vision and could not understand it

Even after Gabriel explained the vision to Daniel, he was sick for days. Understanding was given to him, but his mind never was able to comprehend it. The honest truth is, we really don't have all the answers folks. God can reveal his infinity to us and our minds will still become distraught. The difference between now and then is one, the cross, that enabled us to "see" the kingdom. And two, the pouring out of the spirit into all flesh. The Spirit is now in us to reveal to our spirit things our minds just can't grasp. The best we can do is observe and be amazed.

9 Re: Daniel 8 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:31 am


I know we've moved on, but this came to me and I wanted to just throw it in regardless.

This particular chapter, remember Daniel's position when the vision came to him. He's not in bed at night or in some remote place, he's in a palace. When Scripture refers to the fact that the kingdom doesn't come by observation, but that it's in you, a kingdom is connected to a palace. Yes, my body is a temple, but in this light, it's also a palace. Ever think of your body being a palace? All we see is what the mirror reflects back to us . . .with some therapy we get by with dealing with what we see. ( Wink )

But what God is doing here with Daniel, is he's giving "him" a prophetic view of what's to come to "the" earth, but to us, he's revealing a spiritual understanding of what's happening "in" us.

All these things are things that are going on within us. You can't take captive the ungodly things in you if you can't see them being loose in the first place. This is to reveal what should be loosed and what should be bound.

10 Re: Daniel 8 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:51 pm


In the end of Revelation it says there is no temple, no we've become the holy city, including the palace.

11 Re: Daniel 8 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:32 pm


oooo! I like that! No more temple . . .our body becomes one with the Father do you suppose?

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