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1 Daniel 5 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:57 pm

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5 1-4 King Belshazzar held a great feast for his one thousand nobles. The wine flowed freely. Belshazzar, heady with the wine, ordered that the gold and silver chalices his father Nebuchadnezzar had stolen from God’s Temple of Jerusalem be brought in so that he and his nobles, his wives and concubines, could drink from them. When the gold and silver chalices were brought in, the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines, drank wine from them. They drank the wine and drunkenly praised their gods made of gold and silver, bronze and iron, wood and stone.

"Bel protect the king" son of "Nebo protect the crown". Their identity was in the gods they worshiped. There's no timeline here but it doesn't matter. Even though in the end of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, he finally got turned around, he'd already passed on his godless traits to his son and as we're about to find out here, his son takes to the exact same pattern.

But once again, here you see another example of mixing spiritual truth with natural reasoning. They're using elements from the temple of God to get drunk with as they worship their own golden idols they've erected for themselves.

This is why I beleive being purified is both instantaneous and a process at the same time. And isn't it just like God to not just settle with the head of the house, he wants the whole family. Interesting about Daniel's original dream to Nebuchadnezzar about the dream with the idol that had a head of gold, chest and arms of silver, thighs of bronze and legs of iron with feet blended with iron and clay. There was no mention that the world would continue having Egypt as the leading nation once Nebuchadnezzar was done.

I don't know how long his son was king, but I'm betting it wasn't long enough to make a dent in the legacy. Mixing what is holy with what is unholy will always and forever bring an end to whatever status one had before making the attempt.

Just think of the religious system we've been raised in, all with great intentions, but how much longer do we expect the church . . .around the world, not just our nation, to carry on with their party of taking what is sacred and getting drunk . . .cultivating and manipulating spiritual truths to carry out their personal pleasures as they disrespectfully continue to worship idols that they, themselves have made and "called" God?

The writing "is" on the wall and I think their end has already begun. I think, and I say this with all humbleness, but I think what God is bringing "us" into is a preparation of what he's about to take "them" out of.

It doesn't appear that the church is looking for any interpreters to translate God's hand as of yet as they seem to have already convinced themselves that "their" interpreters are accurate in their false claims and distorted views of what faith and grace really is.

2 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:44 am

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(It doesn't appear that the church is looking for any interpreters to translate God's hand as of yet as they seem to have already convinced themselves that "their" interpreters are accurate in their false claims and distorted views of what faith and grace really is.)

I couldn't agree more Nathan.
And I don't know if this has any relevance to the story, but this Belshazzar is Neby's "Grandson", not son.

The only bearing I can see from this is in Jer. prophesy on Babylon's land.

Belshazzar. He was the son of Nabonidus. The inscriptions show that he was made co-regent while he (Nabonidus) went to meet Cyrus.

father Nebuchadnezzar. No "historical difficulty". Critics should tell us what word Daniel could have used, seeing there is no word in Chaldee or Hebrew for "grandfather". The word "father" is used by Figure of speech Synecdoche (of Species), App-6, for ancestor. Compare 1Ki_15:11-13, where David is called the "father" of Asa, and Maachah is called his mother (compare 2Ki_15:1, 2Ki_15:2 with 11-13). In 2Ki_14:3 the same is said of Amaziah; and in 2Ch_34:1, 2Ch_34:2, of Josiah. Compare Rom_9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac". But Jer_27:7 explains the matter fully: "all nations shall serve him (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar), and his son (Nabonidus), and his son's son (Belshazzar), until the very time of his land come". See note on Dan_7:1.

Great Job Nathan!




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3 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:05 am

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I was also going to say, Nathan, that if you want the timelines I can send them to you. I think some of them are fascinating.

In the first year of Belshazzar. This was 429 B.C. See App-50. Daniel being eighty-four years old. Three years before the events of Dan 6. Compare Dan_5:30, Dan_5:31, and the notes on the other dates (Dan_8:1; Dan_9:1; Dan_10:1; Dan_11:1, &c).

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4 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:25 am

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I wonder why there's no mention of Nabonidus in Daniel . . . maybe he died before Nebuchadnezzar stepped down?

What translation did you get that from? King James doesn't even give "any" names of his son, or grandson in that verse.

And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him

I poked around a little bit and I found a side note that stated this pertaining to that verse.

Meaning, Evil-Merodach, and his son Belshazzar.

I'm at a loss here . . .who is Nebuchadnezzar's actual son?

There is only one other reference to "Merodach" in Scripture and in looking that up, I found that Merdoach isn't a person, it's the chief god worshiped during Nebuchadnezzar's reign.

Jeremiah 50:2
Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, [and] conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.

Looks like Merodach is a she . . .

5 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:40 am

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This is coming out of Bullinger's work, in The companion Bible.

It says that Nabonidus was his son.
http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append50_VIII.html

Belshazzar: Belshazzar is said by Josephus to be the same as Naboandelus, the Nabonadius of Ptolemy, and the Labynetus of Herodotus. He reigned seven years, during which time he was engaged in unsuccessful wars with the Medes and Persians; and at this very time was besieged by Cyrus.

The date on the link I posted is 446 BC




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6 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:47 am

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I didn't mean to side track the thread, I just thought it might be worth mentioning.

I did find this also:

Belshazzar was the son of Nabonidus, who after ruling only three years, went to the oasis of Tayma and devoted himself to the worship of the moon god Sin. He made Belshazzar co-regent in 553 BC, leaving him in charge of Babylon's defense.[1] In 540 BC, Nabonidus returned from Tayma, hoping to defend his kingdom from the Persians who were planning to advance on Babylon. Belshazzar was positioned in the city of Babylon to hold the capital, while Nabonidus marched his troops north to meet Cyrus. On October 10, 539 BC, Nabonidus surrendered and fled from Cyrus. Two days later the Persian armies overthrew the city of Babylon.

So really it's anyone's guess.




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7 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:58 pm

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5 At the same hour appeared fingers of a man’s hand, which wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaster of the wall of the king’s palace, and the king saw the palm of the hand that wrote.

6 Then the king’s countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against the other.

7 Wherefore the king cried loud, that they should bring the astrologians, the Chaldeans and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babel, Whosoever can read this writing, and declare me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with purple, and shall have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.

8 Then came all the king’s wise men, but they could neither read the writing, nor show the king the interpretation.


Same song, different verse. It's no surprise that the king does the exact same thing as his predecessors did when trying to unlock a mystery. He doesn't have the capacity to identify the hand of God even when it becomes visible right in front of his face. So he turns to the same people that who manipulate lies to appear to be truths.

What "we" now know is that the days of the golden head have come to an end and now the silver breast and arms has entered into the arena. The Medes and the Persians were already making their way toward Babylon to conquer it.

Egypt as a whole is still the same as it was before. It is an uncircumcised power that is destined to lose it's position. The carnality in us is exactly the same way. The decree has already been made, the avenue through which redemption comes to us, already established. But carnality only knows one thing . . . how to please it's "self". It has no respect or reverence for the things of God. It takes what is sacred and uses them for it's own abominations.

Who would purposefully place their lives in the hands of a cause that they already know is collapsing? We do it every time we put our confidence and trust in the nature of man . . in our own abilities.

8 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:19 pm

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Interesting that the hand wrote by the candlestick.

Is this connected to REV : Lamp being removed?

9 Re: Daniel 5 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:37 pm

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First of all . . .GREAT OBSERVATION I didn't catch the fact that this happened next to the candle stick.

But . . now that you mention it . . . it DOES say that he had the GOLD brought up from what was in the temple at Jerusalem . . .where . . the candlestick was. This could very well be the same candlestick that was in the holy place and as we see in Revelation . . .Christ is the candlestick . . so it only makes sense that the writing would be next it. All they saw was the hand that wrote their demise, they couldn't see Christ because they represent the carnal flesh . . .

Which then leads to the next point and Jeremy hits the nail on the head. "We" are temples of the Holy Ghost and IN US ALL there is a candlestick that is an ever burning flame that both consumes and gives light within us. The flame exists on the oil in us . . .the anointing within produces light without.

But when we take that which is holy and abuse it for our own pleasures, it quenches the flame in us. It affects the order of alignment between our spirit and soul. If the spirit is not in its rightful place, the anointing within is stopped up and if there's no oil, there's no flame, no light, no clarity, no understanding . . .no life.

Great catch Jeremy!!

10 Re: Daniel 5 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:57 pm

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9 Then was king Belshazzar greatly troubled, and his countenance was changed in him, and his lords were astonied.

10 Now the queen by reason of the words of the king and his lords came into the banquet house: and the queen spake and said, O king, live for ever: let not thy thoughts trouble thee, nor let thy countenance be changed:

11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;

12 Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.


After reading Todd's post about his dream, I agreed with myself that while there may be some things God has anointed me for, interpreting dreams is not one of them. The only thing I came up with was maybe Todd should lay off the spicey foods before going to bed.

But the truth is . . .IN ALL OF US there is A MAN that has the ability to pull spiritual truth out of natural experiences. My Adam, being directly connected to God through the very spirit of God, can receive understanding, translation, and interpretation from God simply by me going "inward" to where the kingdom of God dwells. It's in all of us.

The flesh in me is troubled. The logic in me is confounded, but the spirit in me is waiting for me to give it authority to reveal to my understanding the message that the candlestick in me has written on the walls of my heart.

Oh, I was in the shower last night and this thought had come to me about how this hand wrote this message upon the wall of the kings palace and how Scripture states that no longer does God write his laws upon stone and mortar but instead, he writes it upon the hearts of his people. It's what actually led me to stop relying on what I read in Scripture to build my faith on, and instead, embrace the Word written "in" me be my foundation stone.

That did two things. One, it allowed me to let go of an entire belief system. And two, it totally transformed my own belief system in it's entirety to the point to where it's literally unrecognizeable when compared to what it was before.

And by the way, shifting gears to the 1st dimension again, it states Nebuchadnezzar as his father and not grandfather again. It does this several times throughout this chapter. There's no mention of it being his father's father. But to Scherryl's point, the Hebrew language and culture has a totally different way of it's operations compared to our cultural mindsets today. Whether it was his son or grandson doesn't affect the outcome in the end when seeing it spiritually, or "inwardly". In all of us, there is still a "man" that has been anointed to interpret the language of God regardless of what form He's written it within us.

11 Re: Daniel 5 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:17 pm

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13 Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry?

14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.

15 And now the wise men, the astrologers, have been brought in before me, that they should read this writing, and make known unto me the interpretation thereof: but they could not shew the interpretation of the thing:

16 And I have heard of thee, that thou canst make interpretations, and dissolve doubts: now if thou canst read the writing, and make known to me the interpretation thereof, thou shalt be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about thy neck, and shalt be the third ruler in the kingdom.

17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.


In a sense, this strikes me as a dog returning to his vomit. The king of Egypt that we read about earlier had the exact same patterns and characteristics as this one. The only difference was, "this" one should have known better due to seeing what happened to Nebuchadnezzar. It's no small thing for a king, a world leader to litterally go insane for 7 years and yet be able to return and be even greater than he was before he collapsed.

But instead of learning from the mistakes of his predicessors, he reverted back to the ways of carnality. The only priority was bringing pleasure to "self". But he crossed the line by dishonoring the sacred elements, the golden goblets of the temple. The very things that God used to engage with those he loved, were abused and brought into places of self-indulgences.

Religion follows this same pattern as does the carnality within every one of us. The excessive drinking of the wine distorts the reasoning of the mind which is what these inward examples are always pointing to. Every time we look at these things inwardly, the main players are always the same . . .the carnal mind warring against the Spirit of life. Note the characteristics the king mentioned about Daniel . . . it's the same with the Spirit within us.

In these stories we've seen in Daniel, the astrologers, the wisemen, the Chaldeans (clod breakers), none of them could read what was written, they couldn't see what was revealed. They were blind to everything godly but they were so distracted by their own activities that it really didn't affect their identity. They were still embedded in carnality and carnality induces blindness, deafness and awareness to God's presence and plan.

Every time we turn to the carnality with in us, God doesn't "leave" us, we just become numb to his voice, and his presence. That's the consequecial reaction to our bad choices. God doesn't give us ultimatims about leaving us. Wherever we go, he's there. The problem is, carnality blinds, mutes and deafens the voice of the Spirit that is continually calling, leading, guiding us through this life.

The handwriting on the wall of the heart of carnal man was merely God giving notice that because carnality held God's chosen in captivity, they themselves would become captive. By that time, all Daniel could do was read what was written. Reveal what already existed.

In us, it's a shock and awe experience with the intention not to destroy us, but to awaken us from our state of slumber . . .another characteristic of carnality, it puts us to sleep without our mind being aware of what's going on.

The mind of man is a great and powerful thing when it's utilized in the proper alignment and dimension. But the moment . . .the MOMENT there's a spiritual manifestation within us, the mind no longer is in control of the situation. But it can fool us into thinking it is still in control. And that's when trouble comes.

Paul's religiuos zeal led him to a state of blindness as well. Peter's flesh blinded him from seeing the resurrection beginning to manifest and it also got him rebuked and left in the darkness, cowering in fear as well. God's grace will win every time though. But how much more effective would we be in our own lives if we'd break free from the pattern of carnality as well?

12 Re: Daniel 5 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:29 pm

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18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:

19 And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down.

20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

22 And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this;

23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified


The last verse there . . .he lifted himself up "against the Lord". Paul put it another way. The carnal mind is at emnity agianst God.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

5-8 Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God’s action in them find that God’s Spirit is in them—living and breathing God! Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing. And God isn’t pleased at being ignored
Message translation

This isn't about "struggling" with personal issues that come on a daily basis. This is about giving up the struggle and simply embracing the desires and lusts our bodies crave. It's about making excuses for why the dirt can remain rather than submit to the Father to let him remove it. This king wasn't looking for God's direction. He was looking no further than the bottom of his wine glass. Carnality has no ability to look ahead. It only cares about it's immediate surroundings.

Now, when you align that up with a God who is infinity, who knows the end from the beginning, even though in our limited understanding, we can't see the beginning or end, is it any wonder that we stunt our own growth when embracing the carnality within us?

13 Re: Daniel 5 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:33 am

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22 And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this;
23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:
24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.
25 And this is the writing that was written, Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.
26 This is the interpretation of the thing: Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
27 Tekel; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
28 Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.


Imagine standing before the throne of your heart and declaring this to your "self". The self Jesus mentioned and called the abomination of desolation. No matter how much gold, silver, jewels, precious stones . . .it's all nothing but chaff in the wind. All the knowledge, all the works, all the logic, reasoning, effort . .. none of it brings righteousness. And none of it earns us a position in the kingdom. All it does is bring division within us.

There is only one that can truly divide flesh from spirit and that's the Word in us. The kingship of Belshazzar was not a right, it was a gift and he squandered it. We look around our world and throw our hands up in defeat because of all of the death and destruction, the aftermath of man giving honor to the carnality within him.

And we deem it hopless. We continue on serving God but trying hard not to think too much about our surroundings because it APPEARS that what we see and what the Bible says about God's divine nature are opposing one another. But as the salt of this earth, rather than allow the earth to affect the flavor of who we are, we're SUPPOSED to be the ones altering the staleness of the death around us.

We're SUPPOSED to take notice, but then act on what we hear within us, not on what we see around us. We're to call out the things that are not seen as though they already are. The Meades and Persians had not yet taken the city or nation . . .but the writing on the wall called it into being. What's the Father's writing on the walls of our own hearts proclaiming? Are we defiling the holy things of God within our own temples?

The good news is, God is turning the tables on the carnality in us. But bad news is, if it's our own carnality that we've been embracing, the overthrow isn't going to be a pretty one. The trees of our own glory within us are about to be chopped down . . .in fact, I'd even go so far to say that this is a routine happening within us daily.

It's not a one-time deal. It happened to the Nebuchadnezzar in us, it's happening to the Belshazzar . . .it's the process of life. Whether we worship the father like Daniel did, or whether we worship God like Nebuchadnezzar . . .only when there's a revival in town . . .or . . .like Belshazzar . . .when we're just completly oblivious to God's presence at all. The process continues to press on . . .carnality cleansed, human's rejoice . . .for a while . . .carnality creeps back in . . .humans become distracted . . . intrigued . . .shocked . . .then bound again.

The sons of God are called "out" of the process to rise above the routine of "two steps forward, one step back" in God. The more we mature in our relationship with God, the less we run to the warfare and the more we run to the plowshares. May we celebrate the harvest of the Father as his messengers proclaim the true gospel to the earth.

14 Re: Daniel 5 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:55 am

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29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.

30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.

31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.


When I was in my early twenties, I enjoyed going to this bar at night and shoot pool. I never drank the booze, I just liked shooting pool. One particular night, some of my buddies I worked with at the time were there as well. But they "did" like the booze . . .very much . . .too much!! And as the rules go, if you wish to play a game and the table is already occupied, you lay your money on the edge of the table until those playing are through.

then, you play the winner of whoever was ahead of you. Now, often times, things get busy and several people want to play pool . .but there's only one table. So they line their quarters up in a row and keep track of where "their" money is.

As the beers began to flow, their attention as to where they were in the line began to fade. So when a game finished . . .this huge pile of muscle that had a face on the front of it, took the money and dropped the balls for a new game. Unfortunately, one of my co-worker buddies felt that muscle-head jumped in the line. So like any drunk, he made a scene.

Much to my surprise, the muscle-face backed down and nothing more was said about it. My friend played his game and the night went on . . .but what noone was aware of was . . .Mr. muscle was out in the parking lot . .waiting. And sure enough, when my friend went out to his car, a truck fell on him and pounded the snot out of him . . .and the guy had two or three friends with him to help . . .not that he needed it.

So . . my friend comes barreling back into the bar, yells at his cousins and without ANY hesitation, they clear out. I just wanted to shoot pool, I wanted NO PART in a stupid bar fight. After a few minutes went by, surprisingly, the cousins came back into the bar . . .ordered a beer, put their money on the pool table as if nothing happened.

But two things had happened. One, while they were gone, the pool table broke and wouldn't take your money anymore and two, the cousins faces were pounded to a pulp and were all swelled up and puffy looking. When one of them went to put their money on the table, I told him it was broke . . .and HERE is why I'm telling you this story . . .he didn't care that it was broke, he put his money down anyway . . . knowing it was broken, he still went on as though nothing was wrong.

Where's the tie-in? Belshazzar KNEW what Nebuchadnezzar had been through and he didn't care, he just carried on like it didn't happen. Like God didn't exist. Like there would be no consequences for defiling the holiness of God. It made absolutely no sense to me why that guy would put his money down knowing full well the table was broken . . .but man . . .THAT is the nature of carnality. It doesn't need to make sense.

In fact, it almost dares you to try to make sense of it. What drives carnality is not logic and reason. It uses logic and reason "against" us when it comes to holiness, but when it wants to just over-ride our understanding, it will do so and dare you to pick a fight with it.

Ever see someone doing something illogical and you find yourself bewildered by it and wonder why on earth they can't see the destruction they're doing to themselves? It's not just because they're blind, carnality is driven by death, destruction, complete humiliation . . .it doesn't need logic to operate. Belshazzar knew full well what happened to Nebechadnezzar, but . . . carnality had an appointment to keep with the Medes and Persians of the day.

"Bel protect the king" came to his demise by the hands of . . .well isn't this interesting. "Darius" literally means "Lord". Huh. Well whatdya know about that. The Lord overthrew the king of the clod-breakers because of the blindness of his heart and the carnality of his mind.

15 Re: Daniel 5 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:57 am

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Nathan,

I just want to say, I feel it a privilege, to read your writings. You have such a gift of clarity and getting to the heart of the matter.

You really know how to draw the Life of the story out, I thank God we have you here on this forum, you are a blessing indeed.




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16 Re: Daniel 5 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:09 pm

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17 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:10 am

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cross-eyed wrote:The flesh in me is troubled. The logic in me is confounded, but the spirit in me is waiting for me to give it authority to reveal to my understanding the message that the candlestick in me has written on the walls of my heart.

Oh, I was in the shower last night and this thought had come to me about how this hand wrote this message upon the wall of the kings palace and how Scripture states that no longer does God write his laws upon stone and mortar but instead, he writes it upon the hearts of his people. It's what actually led me to stop relying on what I read in Scripture to build my faith on, and instead, embrace the Word written "in" me be my foundation stone.

That did two things. One, it allowed me to let go of an entire belief system. And two, it totally transformed my own belief system in it's entirety to the point to where it's literally unrecognizeable when compared to what it was before

...Whether it was his son or grandson doesn't affect the outcome in the end when seeing it spiritually, or "inwardly". In all of us, there is still a "man" that has been anointed to interpret the language of God regardless of what form He's written it within us.

We have come to the same understanding in this! I wonder, Nathan, have you ever read Mark Twain's Roughing It? There is a story in there about a stalwart rough he encountered out west and I love how he ends the account, though it is worth something to read the rest. The story always kept me in stitches to the very end, where I would break down and cry every time. Enjoy!

SOMEBODY has said that in order to know a community, one must observe the style of its funerals and know what manner of men they bury with most ceremony. I cannot say which class we buried with most eclat in our "flush times," the distinguished public benefactor or the distinguished rough -- possibly the two chief grades or grand divisions of society honored their illustrious dead about equally; and hence, no doubt the philosopher I have quoted from would have needed to see two representative funerals in Virginia before forming his estimate of the people.
There was a grand time over Buck Fanshaw when he died. He was a representative citizen. He had "killed his man" -- not in his own quarrel, it is true, but in defence of a stranger unfairly beset by numbers. He had kept a sumptuous saloon. He had been the proprietor of a dashing helpmeet whom he could have discarded without the formality of a divorce. He had held a high position in the fire department and been a very Warwick in politics. When he died there was great lamentation throughout the town, but especially in the vast bottom-stratum of society.
On the inquest it was shown that Buck Fanshaw, in the delirium of a wasting typhoid fever, had taken arsenic, shot himself through the body, cut his throat, and jumped out of a four-story window and broken his neck -- and after due deliberation, the jury, sad and tearful, but with intelligence unblinded by its sorrow, brought in a verdict of death "by the visitation of God." What could the world do without juries?
Prodigious preparations were made for the funeral. All the vehicles in town were hired, all the saloons put in
mourning, all the municipal and fire-company flags hung at half-mast, and all the firemen ordered to muster in uniform and bring their machines duly draped in black. Now -- let us remark in parenthesis -- as all the peoples of the earth had representative adventurers in the Silverland, and as each adventurer had brought the slang of his nation or his locality with him, the combination made the slang of Nevada the richest and the most infinitely varied and copious that had ever existed anywhere in the world, perhaps, except in the mines of California in the "early days." Slang was the language of Nevada. It was hard to preach a sermon without it, and be understood. Such phrases as "You bet!" "Oh, no, I reckon not!" "No Irish need apply," and a hundred others, became so common as to fall from the lips of a speaker unconsciously -- and very often when they did not touch the subject under discussion and consequently failed to mean anything.
After Buck Fanshaw's inquest, a meeting of the short-haired brotherhood was held, for nothing can be done on the Pacific coast without a public meeting and an expression of sentiment. Regretful resolutions were passed and various committees appointed; among others, a committee of one was deputed to call on the minister, a fragile, gentle, spirituel new fledgling from an Eastern theological seminary, and as yet unacquainted with the ways of the mines. The committeeman, "Scotty" Briggs, made his visit; and in after days it was worth something to hear the minister tell about it. Scotty was a stalwart rough, whose customary suit, when on weighty official business, like committee work, was a fire helmet, flaming red flannel shirt, patent leather belt with spanner and revolver attached, coat hung over arm, and pants stuffed into boot tops. He formed something of a contrast to the pale theological student. It is fair to say of Scotty, however, in passing, that he had a warm heart, and a strong love for his friends, and never entered into a quarrel when he could resonably keep out of it. Indeed, it was commonly said that whenever one of Scotty's fights was investigated, it always turned out that it had originally been no affair of his, but that out of native goodheartedness he had dropped in of his own accord to help the man who was getting the worst of it. He and Buck Fanshaw were bosom friends, for years, and had often taken adventurous "pot-luck" together. On one occasion, they had thrown off their coats and taken the weaker side in a fight among strangers, and after gaining a hard-earned victory, turned and found that the men they were helping had deserted early, and not only that, but had stolen their coats and made off with them! But to return to Scotty's visit to the minister. He was on a sorrowful mission, now, and his face was the picture of woe. Being admitted to the presence he sat down before the clergyman, placed his fire-hat on an unfinished manuscript sermon under the minister's nose, took from it a red silk handkerchief, wiped his brow and heaved a sigh of dismal impressiveness, explanatory of his business.
He choked, and even shed tears; but with an effort he mastered his voice and said in lugubrious tones:
"Are you the duck that runs the gospel-mill next door?"
"Am I the -- pardon me, I believe I do not understand?"
With another sigh and a half-sob, Scotty rejoined:

"Why you see we are in a bit of trouble, and the boys thought maybe you would give us a lift, if we'd tackle you -- that is, if I've got the rights of it and you are the head clerk of the doxology-works next door."
"I am the shepherd in charge of the flock whose fold is next door."
"The which?"
"The spiritual adviser of the little company of believers whose sanctuary adjoins these premises."
Scotty scratched his head, reflected a moment, and then said:
"You ruther hold over me, pard. I reckon I can't call that hand. Ante and pass the buck."
"How? I beg pardon. What did I understand you to say?"
"Well, you've ruther got the bulge on me. Or maybe we've both got the bulge, somehow. You don't smoke me and I don't smoke you. You see, one of the boys has passed in his checks and we want to give him a good send-off, and so the thing I'm on now is to roust out somebody to jerk a little chin-music for us and waltz him through handsome."
"My friend, I seem to grow more and more bewildered. Your observations are wholly incomprehensible to me. Cannot you simplify them in some way? At first I thought perhaps I understood you, but I grope now. Would it not expedite matters if you restricted yourself to categorical statements of fact unencumbered with obstructing accumulations of metaphor and allegory?"
Another pause, and more reflection. Then, said Scotty:
"I'll have to pass, I judge."
"How?"
"You've raised me out, pard."
"I still fail to catch your meaning."
"Why, that last lead of yourn is too many for me -- that's the idea. I can't neither-trump nor follow suit."
The clergyman sank back in his chair perplexed. Scotty leaned his head on his hand and gave himself up to thought. Presently his face came up, sorrowful but confident.

"I've got it now, so's you can savvy," he said. "What we want is a gospel-sharp. See?"
"A what?"
"Gospel-sharp. Parson."
"Oh! Why did you not say so before? I am a clergyman -- a parson."
"Now you talk! You see my blind and straddle it like a man. Put it there!" -- extending a brawny paw, which closed over the minister's small hand and gave it a shake indicative of fraternal sympathy and fervent gratification.
"Now we're all right, pard. Let's start fresh. Don't you mind my snuffling a little -- becuz we're in a power of trouble. You see, one of the boys has gone up the flume -- "
"Gone where?"
"Up the flume -- throwed up the sponge, you understand."
"Thrown up the sponge?"
"Yes -- kicked the bucket -- "
"Ah -- has departed to that mysterious country from whose bourne no traveler returns."
"Return! I reckon not. Why pard, he's dead!"
"Yes, I understand."
"Oh, you do? Well I thought maybe you might be getting tangled some more. Yes, you see he's dead again -- "
"Again? Why, has he ever been dead before?"
"Dead before? No! Do you reckon a man has got as many lives as a cat? But you bet you he's awful dead now, poor old boy, and I wish I'd never seen this day. I don't want no better friend than Buck Fanshaw. I knowed him by the back; and when I know a man and like him, I freeze to him -- you hear me. Take him all round, pard, there never was a bullier man in the mines. No man ever knowed Buck Fanshaw to go back on a friend. But it's all up, you know, it's all up. It ain't no use. They've scooped him."
"Scooped him?"
"Yes -- death has. Well, well, well, we've got to give him up. Yes indeed. It's a kind of a hard world, after all, ain't it? But pard, he was a rustler! You ought to seen him get started once. He was a bully boy with a glass eye! Just spit in his face and give him room according to his strength, and it was just beautiful to see him peel and go in. He was the worst son of a thief that ever drawed breath. Pard, he was on it! He was on it bigger than an Injun!"
"On it? On what?"
"On the shoot. On the shoulder. On the fight, you understand. He didn't give a continental for any body. Beg your pardon, friend, for coming so near saying a cuss-word -- but you see I'm on an awful strain, in this palaver, on account of having to cramp down and draw everything so mild. But we've got to give him up. There ain't any getting around that, I don't reckon. Now if we can get you to help plant him -- "
"Preach the funeral discourse? Assist at the obsequies?"
"Obs'quies is good. Yes. That's it -- that's our little game. We are going to get the thing up regardless, you know. He was always nifty himself, and so you bet you his funeral ain't going to be no slouch -- solid silver door-plate on his coffin, six plumes on the hearse, and a nigger on the box in a biled shirt and a plug hat -- how's that for high? And we'll take care of you, pard. We'll fix you all right. There'll be a kerridge for you; and whatever you want, you just 'scape out and we'll 'tend to it. We've got a shebang fixed up for you to stand behind, in No. 1's house, and don't you be afraid. Just go in and toot your horn, if you don't sell a clam. Put Buck through as bully as you can, pard, for anybody that knowed him will tell you that he was one of the whitest men that was ever in the mines. You can't draw it too strong. He never could stand it to see things going wrong. He's done more to make this town quiet and peaceable than any man in it. I've seen him lick four Greasers in eleven minutes, myself. If a thing wanted regulating, he warn't a man to go browsing around after somebody to do it, but he would prance in and regulate it himself. He warn't a Catholic. Scasely. He was down on 'em. His word was, `No Irish need apply!' But it didn't make no difference about that when it came down to what a man's rights was -- and so, when some roughs jumped the Catholic bone-yard and started in to stake out town-lots in it he went for 'em! And he cleaned 'em, too! I was there, pard, and I seen it myself."

"That was very well indeed -- at least the impulse was -- whether the act was strictly defensible or not. Had deceased any religious convictions? That is to say, did he feel a dependence upon, or acknowledge allegiance to a higher power?'
More reflection.

"I reckon you've stumped me again, pard. Could you say it over once more, and say it slow?"
"Well, to simplify it somewhat, was he, or rather had he ever been connected with any organization sequestered from secular concerns and devoted to self-sacrifice in the interests of morality?"
"All down but nine -- set 'em up on the other alley, pard."
"What did I understand you to say?"
"Why, you're most too many for me, you know. When you get in with your left I hunt grass every time. Every time you draw, you fill; but I don't seem to have any luck. Lets have a new deal."

"How? Begin again?"
"That's it."
"Very well. Was he a good man, and -- "
"There -- I see that; don't put up another chip till I look at my hand. A good man, says you? Pard, it ain't no name for it. He was the best man that ever -- pard, you would have doted on that man. He could lam any galoot of his inches in America. It was him that put down the riot last election before it got a start; and everybody said he was the only man that could have done it. He waltzed in with a spanner in one hand and a trumpet in the other, and sent fourteen men home on a shutter in less than three minutes. He had that riot all broke up and prevented nice before anybody ever got a chance to strike a blow. He was always for peace, and he would have peace -- he could not stand disturbances. Pard, he was a great loss to this town. It would please the boys if you could chip in something like that and do him justice. Here once when the Micks got to throwing stones through the Methodis' Sunday school windows, Buck Fanshaw, all of his own notion, shut up his saloon and took a couple of six-shooters and mounted guard over the Sunday school. Says he, `No Irish need apply!' And they didn't. He was the bulliest man in the mountains, pard! He could run faster, jump higher, hit harder, and hold more tangle-foot whisky without spilling it than any man in seventeen counties. Put that in, pard -- it'll please the boys more than anything you could say. And you can say, pard, that he never shook his mother."
"Never shook his mother?"
"That's it -- any of the boys will tell you so."
"Well, but why should he shake her?"
"That's what I say -- but some people does."
"Not people of any repute?"
"Well, some that averages pretty so-so."
"In my opinion the man that would offer personal violence to his own mother, ought to -- "
"Cheese it, pard; you've banked your ball clean outside the string. What I was a drivin' at, was, that he never throwed off on his mother -- don't you see? No indeedy. He give her a house to live in, and town lots, and plenty of money; and he looked after her and took care of her all the time; and when she was down with the small-pox I'm d -- d if he didn't set up nights and nuss her himself! Beg your pardon for saying it, but it hopped out too quick for yours truly.

You've treated me like a gentleman, pard, and I ain't the man to hurt your feelings intentional. I think you're white. I think you're a square man, pard. I like you, and I'll lick any man that don't. I'll lick him till he can't tell himself from a last year's corpse! Put it there!" [Another fraternal hand-shake -- and exit.]
The obsequies were all that "the boys" could desire. Such a marvel of funeral pomp had never been seen in Virginia. The plumed hearse, the dirge-breathing brass bands, the closed marts of business, the flags drooping at half mast, the long, plodding procession of uniformed secret societies, military battalions and fire companies, draped engines, carriages of officials, and citizens in vehicles and on foot, attracted multitudes of spectators to the sidewalks, roofs and windows; and for years afterward, the degree of grandeur attained by any civic display in Virginia was determined by comparison with Buck Fanshaw's funeral.
Scotty Briggs, as a pall-bearer and a mourner, occupied a prominent place at the funeral, and when the sermon was finished and the last sentence of the prayer for the dead man's soul ascended, he responded, in a low voice, but with feelings:
"AMEN. No Irish need apply."
As the bulk of the response was without apparent relevancy, it was probably nothing more than a humble tribute to the memory of the friend that was gone; for, as Scotty had once said, it was "his word."
Scotty Briggs, in after days, achieved the distinction of becoming the only convert to religion that was ever gathered from the Virginia roughs; and it transpired that the man who had it in him to espouse the quarrel of the weak out of inborn nobility of spirit was no mean timber whereof to construct a Christian. The making him one did not warp his generosity or diminish his courage; on the contrary it gave intelligent direction to the one and a broader field to the other.

If his Sunday-school class progressed faster than the other classes, was it matter for wonder? I think not. He talked to his pioneer small-fry in a language they understood! It was my large privilege, a month before he died, to hear him tell the beautiful story of Joseph and his brethren to his class "without looking at the book." I leave it to the reader to fancy what it was like, as it fell, riddled with slang, from the lips of that grave, earnest teacher, and was listened to by his little learners with a consuming interest that showed that they were as unconscious as he was that any violence was being done to the sacred proprieties!

18 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:21 am

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cross-eyed wrote:But how much more effective would we be in our own lives if we'd break free from the pattern of carnality as well?

I have come to understand that this cannot be done. If we are patient we will trust in Him and wait on Him to fulfill His promises to us. We will be waiting, either way, patiently or not. Even if He did allow us to do the "breaking free" then it wouldn't be good for us because He knows us well enough to know we might find ourselves taking some of the credit for our freedom.

19 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:33 am

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cross-eyed wrote:This isn't about "struggling" with personal issues that come on a daily basis. This is about giving up the struggle and simply embracing the desires and lusts our bodies crave...

Now, when you align that up with a God who is infinity, who knows the end from the beginning, even though in our limited understanding, we can't see the beginning or end, is it any wonder that we stunt our own growth when embracing the carnality within us?

I know I am taking these statements out of context but they are so right on I couldn't resist!

As far as "embracing the desires and lusts our bodies crave," I got pretty much zilch and nada on that one unless you want to count drinking water, eating a little food, enjoying precious sleep, a hug, some smoking and chewing still, and even a couple of cookies. That's what it's been for me. What it might be for you if you follow all of your own lusts could be a lot different but if they are more destructive even than these then go ahead and deliver yourself up for the destruction of the flesh (carnality in this case) would be my advice to you and have it done with.

20 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:40 am

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Scherryl wrote:Nathan,

I just want to say, I feel it a privilege, to read your writings. You have such a gift of clarity and getting to the heart of the matter.

You really know how to draw the Life of the story out, I thank God we have you here on this forum, you are a blessing indeed.


Amen!

21 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:57 am

cross-eyed

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DavidHarreld wrote:
cross-eyed wrote:But how much more effective would we be in our own lives if we'd break free from the pattern of carnality as well?

I have come to understand that this cannot be done. If we are patient we will trust in Him and wait on Him to fulfill His promises to us. We will be waiting, either way, patiently or not. Even if He did allow us to do the "breaking free" then it wouldn't be good for us because He knows us well enough to know we might find ourselves taking some of the credit for our freedom.

Oh but it can!! That's why we're able to sit with him in high places that Ephesians speaks about! That's why he's gone on ahead and prepared a place for us in the Fathers house so that where he is, we may also be! As long as we're in these bodies of flesh, carnality manifests but it doesn't have to "rule" us any longer. No guilt, no shame . . .just hunger for more of truth that sets us FREE from what??? The carnality that keeps so many bound.

22 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:19 am

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Amen and Amen!

The only distinction I make is a subtle one in language, but so profound in meaning. Some will call it splitting hairs but I do not. I am looking at "we'd break free" vs. "He shall set us free." One is an exercise in futility and the other is a confident hope in a promise. If He can do it to me I assure you He can do it to you! Trust Him!

23 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:38 pm

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I/me/mine, whatever term might fit here, have discovered that I do indeed speak "without looking at the book" now. A promise fulfilled. Scripture is still there and it still speaks but it speaks as if it were written on my heart just like He said it shall. I am persuaded that this is how all of the prophets spoke throughout history and suspect that the rhetoric had been toned down quite a bit when translated into the "king's english" and rendered suitable for publication. I don't know, it's just a hunch. I know they are just regular people. I can warn you though that my mistake was in seeking God with my whole heart. If you don't want to end up like this, then don't ever do THAT! This is just a warning based upon my own experiences, and suspect others could probably relay their own tales of horror.

And excuse me if I still use sarcasm, sourcasm, course and foolish jesting and all that. Some of it seems funny to me and some of it does not. I still have not received His voice, at least that's what I'm telling myself. I know some more than what I did yesterday, too. Let me tell you that folks around here are taking this revealing business very seriously now. My sons are fighting this with every demon I've ever introduced them to and a few more I'm sure and Hollis of course has her concerns, like what kind of a job does a prophet have and stuff like that. Well yeah, that is a concern and I did kind of quit my day job to do this though I didn't know it at the time. Now here we are. What do we do? Turns out that there were a lot of farmers and herdsmen amongst the prophets so I find this agreeable with how He's prepared my heart over the years. I've also discovered that a big issue with prophets is all of this stuff that just comes bubbling out. It's not darts or arrows or blades or any force or implement that can be directed or anything like that so all of those thoughts I had about "shutting up and stop with all the leaking" were folly too. I will just have to speak and do what He/She Father/Spirit directs me/Jesus (in the context of His body and His authority here) to speak and do. And I would have to trust Him in whatever it was, even if it looked to my "baby prophet" eyes like it was wrong, out-of-time, evil, dirty, foolish, whatever. After all, who am I/me/mine to judge? Carnality is anytime I feel like bucking up against the Boss, and that whether I know I am doing it or not. Carnality's stronghold and kingdom exists anywhere I maintain some dogma or another which prevents a brighter revealing of Him in me. Let go anything that might be anything like that, and prove in yourself that He is true to His Word, that His Word is already written in your heart.

Do you know what you can do with your precious bible? Give it to someone who's heart has just been plowed, but who is not yet trusting enough in God to abandon herself completely to His care and fellowship. Between the invitingness of your Light, and the words that He has written in scripture, I just bet God could plant some seeds in that field. Just like He did with us. For us, it will be enough that when she does have questions that she can ask and we already have the stories to share and how to interpret them because we have the Master of the Greatest Library feeding us with the very best material on the subject that He has at Hand. It is for His name's sake that He does this. After all, aren't you out there prophesying in His name? Hasn't he placed on her heart a desire to know Him better? Didn't you and she and He all get wrapped up in this together in some fashion that was way beyond your doing? Can you trust Him enough to know that it was His doing?

What is there to fear? This is not a rhetorical question. I mean to ask, What do you fear, at this given juncture in your life? You didn't bring yourself here, but God did. I know which path you will take, and yet I see your hesitation. That is why I say, "You have questions. Ask!"

24 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:10 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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I am going to be bold David and ask a question, Do you actually believe it was a mistake to seek after God with your whole heart?

Because this is what I saw when I read this:

Quote from David:
I can warn you though that my mistake was in seeking God with my whole heart. If you don't want to end up like this, then don't ever do THAT!
End Quote

Jugg



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

25 Re: Daniel 5 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:21 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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I was about to ask the same question, in hopes that I misunderstood what he was saying.

Dear David,

It is never a mistake to Seek God with our Whole hearts, for this is the way He is found.

Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
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