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Daniel 4

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1 Daniel 4 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:10 pm

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4 [a]King Nebuchadnezzar sent this message to the people of every race and nation and language throughout the world:

“Peace and prosperity to you!

2 “I want you all to know about the miraculous signs and wonders the Most High God has performed for me.

3 How great are his signs,
how powerful his wonders!
His kingdom will last forever,
his rule through all generations.

4 [b]“I, Nebuchadnezzar, was living in my palace in comfort and prosperity. 5 But one night I had a dream that frightened me; I saw visions that terrified me as I lay in my bed. 6 So I issued an order calling in all the wise men of Babylon, so they could tell me what my dream meant. 7 When all the magicians, enchanters, astrologers,[c] and fortune-tellers came in, I told them the dream, but they could not tell me what it meant. 8 At last Daniel came in before me, and I told him the dream. (He was named Belteshazzar after my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.)


Hmmm . . .I wonder how many times we misinterpret Scripture when we read about ungodly men, such as nebuchadnezzar, who proclaim godly truths, but they're "still" the epitome of ungodly men. Every time he makes a proclamation, there's always a carnal connection along with it. In the last one, he declared that Daniel's God is "the" God and everyone should acknowledge him as such. But then he has to add "but if anyone doesn't, I'll have them Bar-b-qued on a stick!!

So we're reading through that going "Yay!! Bravo!! You preach it Nebby . . .er . .what? Wait did you just say that? "Kill" everyone that doesn't believe like you do? Well, "I" support you because it's about time someone started getting a little backbone!!

And it goes on and on. But the truth is . . .Scripture says even the devils know who Jesus is and they shake at the sound of his voice!! (another can of worms for another thread) But the point is, the force of carnality is not ignorant to who is truly in charge. It just doesn't like having to be in submission to a Higher power.

Regardless of Nebuchadnezzars religious experiences with Daniel, no matter what he says or does, he still will always represent the nature of carnality in us. That's why, even when he's acknowledging God's existence, it's "still" in "his" terms. You either bow down to the image of Neb or die . . .or . . .bow down to God or die . . .death is always in every equasion.

He explained the fact that he changed Daniel's name to be in accordance with "his" gods, and that Daniel's God was one of the "holy" gods ... even in his explanation acknowledging Daniel's God, he still embraces his own. Mixing spiritual truth with natural reasoning . . .boy, does "that" sound familiar!!

9 “I said to him, ‘Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you and that no mystery is too great for you to solve. Now tell me what my dream means.

10 “‘While I was lying in my bed, this is what I dreamed. I saw a large tree in the middle of the earth. 11 The tree grew very tall and strong, reaching high into the heavens for all the world to see. 12 It had fresh green leaves, and it was loaded with fruit for all to eat. Wild animals lived in its shade, and birds nested in its branches. All the world was fed from this tree.


I don't want to overlook the fact that this IS a different dream from the previous one . . .and yet look at the process he went through in trying to obtain it's meaning. He still went through "his" options first before finally turning to "God is my judge". Can you see "that" pattern in us? How often do we turn to our natural options before finally giving the situation over to God?

Daniel was at his disposal the entire time. He ranted and raved at how great Daniel's God was and even elevate Daniel's ranking status. But when the rubber hit the road and another dream appears to him . . .he goes back to the natural means to try to understand a spiritual message.

He loves talking the talk . . .but walking the walk is a whole other matter. Again, I'm not talking about Nebuchadnezzar . . .I'm talking about the one protecting the crown of carnality in me . . in us. When we can identify the traits and patterns of the carnality in us, we can take captive those crooked routes and remain on the path that is straight and already prepared for us to walk in/on.

The dream is about a tree . . .and the tree represents Nebuchadnezzar . . imagine that. The blind man that Jesus was healing first saw men as trees walking. I don't beleive Jesus was having an off day when he was healing that guy, I believe Jesus did that on purpose, with purpose, to show he was realigning his inward man before healing his outward man.

2 Re: Daniel 4 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:49 pm

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13 “‘Then as I lay there dreaming, I saw a messenger,[d] a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 The messenger shouted,

“Cut down the tree and lop off its branches!
Shake off its leaves and scatter its fruit!
Chase the wild animals from its shade
and the birds from its branches.
15 But leave the stump and the roots in the ground,
bound with a band of iron and bronze
and surrounded by tender grass.
Now let him be drenched with the dew of heaven,
and let him live with the wild animals among the plants of the field.


Can you relate to this? It's the rule of the kingdom. To every man it is decreed once to die. And then? Judgment. But, this judgment is not what we've been taught. It's not eternal damnation to the very creation God cherishes. Judgment comes to the carnality in us, which in turn becomes our salvation and freedom in Him. But is it dead? No, just it's identity of it's "self". the root system isn't the problem, it's the tree that glories in itself that is the problem.

We have to go through the drenching of the dew of the spirit. Remember when the manna fell from heaven? It didn't form on the ground, or on the leaves of plants or grasses of the field. It formed ON THE DEW. It was the WORD and the SPIRIT. The dew was to drench the stump of what was, so that it may become the everlasting of what's yet to come. It's never soley about what "is".

We learn from what was, we live in the now, but we strive for what will be. Let the drenching of the dew saturate deep into the trunk of our old nature so that it may spring forth a new creation, a new identity, a new name . .. the white stone offered to us with a name that only we know individually . . .it's unique to "me", it's a new personal "I.D." given by God through the drenching of the dew.

see ya tomorrow.

3 Re: Daniel 4 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:46 am

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Remember when the manna fell from heaven? It didn't form on the ground, or on the leaves of plants or grasses of the field. It formed ON THE DEW. It was the WORD and the SPIRIT.

WOW, how did I miss that, thank you Nathan. Yes it was. Very Happy

Good stuff!!




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4 Re: Daniel 4 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:57 pm

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15 But leave the stump and the roots in the ground,
bound with a band of iron and bronze
and surrounded by tender grass.
Now let him be drenched with the dew of heaven,
and let him live with the wild animals among the plants of the field


Let's extend this out a little further . . . not only is this tree cut down, but the stump is "bound" with iron and brass . . .anything sound unusual to you about that? We'll be reading through Nebuchadnezzar's actual experience of this taking place in him literally. Remember these two elements were in his first vision as well.

The statue/idol had brass and iron in it as well. Judgment and warfare. Iron, the hardest metal, used to forge weaponry for battle. Brass, the metal that the altar of sacrifice was made out of, signifying judgment and he would be "bound" by them. Sounds pretty bleak. But again, the pattern of God is unchanging. In order for one to experience a resurrection, one first must pass through death.

It's the same with Jesus. For me, He didn't come for the purpose of dying for us on the cross. He came to bring us resurrection life. But to do so, a death had to occur. So he took care of that as well. You can't have resurrection without a death and burial ahead of it. That's what makes water baptism so significant.

Living "with" wild animals . . .man at his best is a beast. As trees, we tend to think ourselves able to rise above it all and in our own power believe "we're" the ones overcoming our own obstacles when that's not true at all. And so . .. God has to tear down the idiology we've built up and worshiped unto ourselves so that we realize the power in us is not our own. This is a lesson our nation as a whole seems to be drifting away from.

16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

This reminds me of the mount of transfiguration in reverse. Just as Jesus revealed his true nature to the three disciples with him and quite frankly, became a blinding beacon of pure light, this representative of human nature is about to be transformed into the true beast that is his real identity as well.

If you ever have wondered what you "really" look like when God is out of the picture . . ."this" is the epitome of what we really are made of. The king of Egypt in me is nothing more than a beast. We were created no differently than the animals that came after us. That's why fear is such an effective means of influence. It's taking advantage of the beast in us which is bound in fear of everything.

The seven seasons that pass over him . . .seven represents what? Completion, fulfillment . . .maturity . . .this isn't showing us the process of how we became beastly, it's showing us the end result of our inner nature when we've let our "self" have all authority. It's not the little serpent of Genesis, it's the dragon of revelation. But it's all still the same thing, the adversarial nature we all wrestle with on a daily basis.

But this story is leading up to a wonderful ending. No matter how ugly, how beastly, how mature the adversary in us may become, it's days have already been numbered. Remember, be of Good cheer, Christ has already overcome.

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.


I needed this during the presidential debates!! Nothing happens by coincidence. God has on overall plan that includes the most minute details. Regardless of what happens in my inward being, nothing happens outside of God's preplanned authorization. God is not a respector of persons. None of us earn his righteousness, but we do inherit the effects of it.

Regardless of how much we think we "deserve" or earn it through great disciplinary tactics, it's as Paul came to realize. Everything we thought we achieved that would make something of ourselves is nothing more than a pile of poop. Self-righteousness is no righteousness at all. And that's exactly what Nebuchadnezzar thought of himself. He took the praise for how great a nation Egypt was and God is about to prove otherwise.

5 Re: Daniel 4 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:45 pm

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I want to just touch on that last comment and verse before moving on. As much as everything is laid out according to God's plan in his realm and as the order of this realm is to follow that plan, I think we may get ourselves into some rough waters of what truth is when we take that to the extent in saying that it's God's plan that innocent are abused and death is so rampant around us.

I believe God set this realm in his order, but it's under our watch and what we see phyically decentigrating around us morally speaking, is not something God orchestrated, but it's something we, as mankind have created for ourselves.

This, for me, all goes back to the sons of God speaking out the truths of the kingdom and begin straightening the roads in ourselves first, then others around us, in which we're guilty of entangling. There were catasterphies taking place in Jesus day as well, seems to me there was something being built and it fell in on the builders and killed a number of them.

It's the nature of the realm in which we live that things, literal things that we make, begin to rust, decay and weaken. There's not much I can do to keep things from rusting other than give it a good heavy coat of paint. But we're not trying to preserve this realm as much as we should be trying to speak life into instances where death runs free.

Back to the guy with all those demons . . .Jesus entered into a graveyard and set a man free. If he can do it in the physical realm, you know he can do it in the spiritual realm. God does have everything in his control. This earth is still on the path God set for it since he first created it and then man. But as stewards, "we" are responsible for what takes place "on" this earth. Why do bad things happen to good people? Because here, it rains on the just and unjust.

Is it God's will that just people get rained on? God provides shelter from the rain, it's up to us to act on what he's provided. We don't act, people get wet. We don't speak life into places of death, death will manifest. We're not to labor into this, we're not to picket every street corner to broadcast our contempt for society's decline.

From the ascended places, we should be "speaking" words of "life", into places of death; "love" into neighborhoods of hate, "joy", into hearts of sadness; "peace" into minds of restlessness. In doing so, we will then begin seeing the fruit of the seeds we've sewn with our lips through our spirit from the position of rest rather than laboring in a religious ministry that does more appeasing to the doer than the recipient in many cases.

Bottom line, this earth is doing what God ordained it to do. It's responding to the way it's been taken care of by the stewards. Noone to blame for it's demise other than those to whom dominion was given to. One person can't reverse the entire earth's decline, but one person "can" plant life into another, and another, and another. It's amazing how truth can multiply when given the opportunity in the master builders hands. Two loaves, seven fish . . .witness (2) of truth fulfilled (7) in men blessed by the Son. . .all are fed with much left over.

6 Re: Daniel 4 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:00 pm

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18 “‘This is what I, King Nebuchadnezzar, dreamed. It’s your turn, Belteshazzar—interpret it for me. None of the wise men of Babylon could make heads or tails of it, but I’m sure you can do it. You’re full of the divine Holy Spirit.’”

“You Will Graze on the Grass Like an Ox”
19 At first Daniel, who had been renamed Belteshazzar in Babylon, was upset. The thoughts that came swarming into his mind terrified him.

“Belteshazzar,” the king said, “stay calm. Don’t let the dream and its interpretation scare you.”

“My master,” said Belteshazzar, “I wish this dream were about your enemies and its interpretation for your foes.

20-22 “The tree you saw that grew so large and sturdy with its top touching the sky, visible from the four corners of the world; the tree with the luxuriant foliage and abundant fruit, enough for everyone; the tree under which animals took cover and in which birds built nests—you, O king, are that tree.

“You have grown great and strong. Your royal majesty reaches sky-high, and your sovereign rule stretches to the four corners of the world.

23-25 “But the part about the holy angel descending from heaven and proclaiming, ‘Chop down the tree, destroy it, but leave stump and roots in the ground belted with a strap of iron and bronze in the grassy meadow; let him be soaked with heaven’s dew and take his meals with the grazing animals for seven seasons’—this, O king, also refers to you. It means that the High God has sentenced my master the king: You will be driven away from human company and live with the wild animals. You will graze on grass like an ox. You will be soaked in heaven’s dew. This will go on for seven seasons, and you will learn that the High God rules over human kingdoms and that he arranges all kingdom affairs.

26 “The part about the tree stump and roots being left means that your kingdom will still be there for you after you learn that it is heaven that runs things.

27 “So, king, take my advice: Make a clean break with your sins and start living for others. Quit your wicked life and look after the needs of the down-and-out. Then you will continue to have a good life.”

28-30 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. Just twelve months later, he was walking on the balcony of the royal palace in Babylon and boasted, “Look at this, Babylon the great! And I built it all by myself, a royal palace adequate to display my honor and glory!”


Ever see someone that seemed to be very well educated and well-rounded but still get blind-sided by something that just about anyone could see coming all along? Even with a deliberate warning, nothing changed. It's the nature in us all. It bothers us to do something for someone only to see someone else get the credit for what we did.

The ego of man is just flat blind to spiritual truth. All it can see is it's own self. You can speak wonderful words of truths to someone but until they experience a paradigm shift in their own identity, they'll pat you on the back because they clearly can see there's something above average in the words you speak to them, they may even be your biggest fan, but it doesn't phase them from continuing to let their "self" be their identity.

We are not spiritual carpenters. We are planters. God gives us the seed through his revelational infinite nature and we merely plant those seeds in the hearts of others. God does the building. Jesus didn't say in three days after his temple was torn down by the religious that the church would rebuild herself. He said that in three days "he" would do the rebuilding.

There "is" an out. Not everyone has to have their tree cut down. Daniel eluded to it. The New Testament pronounces it. Repentence. All the king had to do was . . repent of his ways. Does that mean he as to say he's sorry? No, that's not what repentance is. Does he have to CONFESS HIS SIN to another? No. That's not what repentance is and that passage gets misrepresented everytime it's preached from the religious pulpits.

Repentence merely means . . .having a change of heart. It means to just stop doing the thing that's destroying you. You're going the wrong way on a one-way street. Just turn around. Stop going the wrong way. But man's beastly nature can't do that on it's own. Thus, Nebuchadnezzar was destined to become a wildman. Because that's what the nature of man is within us all. It's a wild beast. No condemnation, no shame, it is what it is. But it can be renewed just as soon as "I" take it captive again. Bring it under submission to the Man in me and "let" God take it from there.

Again, it's all in the words we speak. The king didn't even finish his sentence of boasting up his "self" and in a flash, the tree was severed from it's trunk.

7 Re: Daniel 4 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:38 am

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20-22 “The tree you saw that grew so large and sturdy with its top touching the sky, visible from the four corners of the world; the tree with the luxuriant foliage and abundant fruit, enough for everyone; the tree under which animals took cover and in which birds built nests—you, O king, are that tree.

“You have grown great and strong. Your royal majesty reaches sky-high, and your sovereign rule stretches to the four corners of the world


King of Egypt . . .carnality's reign. It can reach the four corners of both the natural earth . . .the prince of the air, it is. As well as the four corners of the carnal nature in us. Bear in mind also that, there is to be a marriage between our mind and our heart . . .between our soul and our spirit. Our soul relies on our natural eyes to see, our spirit relies on our relationship with the Father to see. But the two become one.

I'm sure our spirit is much like Daniel when it sees what our soul is about to go through, yes? Ever have a restlessness in you that you didn't understand why it was there? Daniel's relationship with the King was a close one, just like the relationship between my soul and my spirit. My soul would be much more reproductive of God's nature if it would only follow the leading of my spirit.

But, much like Nebuchadnezzar, my head hears the warnings, but it just doesn't register the importance. Even when the time came for Jesus to fulfill the prophecies pertaining to the cross, even he became anquished at what he was about to go through and when he asked that the cup be passed from him, I beleive that was merely the soulishness crying out for another way. Thank God Almighty, the spirit prevailed in him and because his alignment was in order, his woman submitted to his man and redemption manifested.

Daniel was concerned for the king for what he was about to experience, but he went ahead and revealed it to him nonetheless. The more I think about that passage that speaks about how it is accounted to every man, once to die and then the judgment . . ."this" is exactly what it's referring to. It's not talking about a natural death, it's talking about a carnal death. Judgement doesn't come to the man, it comes to the carnality in him.

And in all actuallity, we really shouldn't look at this as a sad occasion. Being cut down is only a calamity to the ego in us. But when you see that which is not yet manifested as the result of this great ego being cut down, it should make us celebrate in knowing resurrection and restoration is inevitable.

It's kind of like one of Peter's expereinces when he got himself rebuked by Jesus. (and got called "satan" there as well) Jesus just stated that he was going to go to Jerusalem to die, be buried and resurrect, and all Peter heard was he was going to Jerusalem to die and be buried. The adversarial mind of man can't fathom anything worse than death, let alone comprehend resurrection life.

I wonder how different our lives would be if we walked in that kind of thinking all the time. Rather than getting all caught up in the process of dying, we instead, would brush off that part and focus on the end result, life beyond imagination.

In the mean time, I think the time has come for us to see the true nature of the beast within all of us as it manifests it's true form in the king of Egypt.

8 Re: Daniel 4 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:00 am

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28-30 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. Just twelve months later, he was walking on the balcony of the royal palace in Babylon and boasted, “Look at this, Babylon the great! And I built it all by myself, a royal palace adequate to display my honor and glory!”

31-32 The words were no sooner out of his mouth than a voice out of heaven spoke, “This is the verdict on you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your kingdom is taken from you. You will be driven out of human company and live with the wild animals. You will eat grass like an ox. The sentence is for seven seasons, enough time to learn that the High God rules human kingdoms and puts whomever he wishes in charge.”

33 It happened at once. Nebuchadnezzar was driven out of human company, ate grass like an ox, and was soaked in heaven’s dew. His hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a hawk.


Where were the people of Israel in all of this? Daniel is the representation of the entire nation here. Israel was under Egyptian bondage, they were in Babylonian captivity. It's kind of like what Paul preached about what you can and can't do. He said we actually can do anything we want. But when I do what "I" want, there will be consequences.

More times than not, when I give into carnal cravings or desires, it can be anything from smoking to drinking, partying, womanizing . .. all that heavy stuff . . .or it could be something as simple as drinking nothing but mountain dew (personal weakness). Any "one" of our carnal desires can turn around and put it's hooks into us and hold us under it's spell.

I'll use the mountain dew as the example . . it's safer to talk about drunken The problem with mountain to is the sugar . . .it'll rot your teeth out and make your body work overtime digesting all that sugar. And it really doesn't quench your thirst, it only makes you thirsty for more mountain dew. But that's how sin works . .. the little things tend to lead to a lot of things.

Back on track . . .the moment the king declared how great "he" was and took credit for his success, God's decree interupted his party and in a moment's notice, you know, in the New Testament, it would probably state that he became possessed by evil spirits during this time.

His hair grew out like eagle feathers. What? What is the connection between eagle feathers and a mans hair? Hair is the extension of your thoughts. I believe that's why when there's a spiritual unveiling of an image of Jesus, it takes the time to explain that his hair is "white". In the natural, white hair means your old . .. we like to call it "mature". But in the spiritual, white signifies purity. The white hair illustraits a renewed mind.

But his hair was that of eagle feathers. There are all kinds of characteristics of an eagle. I'm not really sure here why carnality gets connected with an eagle, perhaps because of the solitude and silent places that an eagle reaches? His fingernails take on the characteristics of a hawk . . .birds of prey. Built for tearing and eating flesh, which is what the king of Egypt represents all through Daniel anyway is our fleshly nature.

"This" is the true nature of our natural mind. Man at his best is a beast. It preys on others, the only way it can sustain itself is by bringing death to it's prey. It's constantly searching earth-ridden lives to fill it's appetite. It eats grass like an ox . .. a lot of muscle, built for plowing the fields of labor. There's no rest for the beasts of the field. They're either always hunger looking for prey, or always afraid of "being" preyed upon.

9 Re: Daniel 4 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:32 am

A.R.T.I.C

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Boy Nathan, your just full of surprises aren't you? Smile

I am enjoying reading this so much. And I have always wondered about the hair and what it spoke of.
It never crossed my mind that it could be an extension of our thoughts.

With this in mind, no pun intended Smile
I'm going to take a second look at all the times hair is mentioned now. And I have really long hair, LOL, does that mean I have many thoughts, just kidding, it's mighty busy up there most of the time. LOL

Thank you for that.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
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10 Re: Daniel 4 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:14 pm

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I just love approaching Scripture in this manner. You don't see this stuff until you're "in the moment" of revelating your way through it. It's the one thing I miss most since stepping down from the pulpit.

This forum is such a blessing for me . . .it gives me a release valve so that I don't just up and explode!!! tongue

11 Re: Daniel 4 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:55 pm

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I think the eagle/hawk and ox are an allusion to the cherubim. The cherubim being the beast image that is worshipped, aka the flesh. His statue was 600 cubits by 60.

12 Re: Daniel 4 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:11 pm

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Two things I would like to touch base on, if judgment is not to be a sad thing, than why keep using the word judgment and say what it is Once to die and then correction"

As for the second note, we only have to look at this country to see what man has turned the eagle into

It is the symbol of pride



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

13 End of chapter on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:31 pm

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34-35 “At the end of the seven years, I, Nebuchadnezzar, looked to heaven. I was given my mind back and I blessed the High God, thanking and glorifying God, who lives forever:

“His sovereign rule lasts and lasts,
his kingdom never declines and falls.
Life on this earth doesn’t add up to much,
but God’s heavenly army keeps everything going.
No one can interrupt his work,
no one can call his rule into question.

36-37 “At the same time that I was given back my mind, I was also given back my majesty and splendor, making my kingdom shine. All the leaders and important people came looking for me. I was reestablished as king in my kingdom and became greater than ever. And that’s why I’m singing—I, Nebuchadnezzar—singing and praising the King of Heaven:

“Everything he does is right,
and he does it the right way.
He knows how to turn a proud person
into a humble man or woman.”


At the end of seven years, Nebuchadnezzar looked into heaven . . .just think about that line for a bit. There's that number again. Something came into it's completion. The king came into a place of maturity in God, was enabled to look into the kingdom and . . .he "saw". He was given his mind back, but this isn't the same mind that he lost. This mind has the same identity as a king of Egypt, but it's no longer taking credit for it's restoration. It's no longer bragging about it's personal feats like the old king would always do.

Can you notice the change? "This" is what a renewed mind sounds like. It no longer boasts about it's personal successes. It no longer brings attention to it"self". But it recognizes from where it's power comes from. This is no longer just lip service as it had been before when he would make his emotional praises about God. This time, it's his heart singing the glory of, and to a sovereign God.

I think this is more profound than many give it credit for. This entire time, this man represents satan in us. He represents carnality. He represents evil motivations in man. And look at how God destroys his enemy . . .he transforms him into His glorious light.

I remember reading about early universalists who were men of reknown in their day that would come under terrible rebuke for their brash claims that God would even bring restoration and redemption to satan himself. But in looking at this example we've just went through . . .I'm becoming a believer as well. God's purity is just that strong that not only did his son save mankind . . .but his purity redeems even the unredeemable. Perhaps that's why we're called to love the unloveable. God already did.

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