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Who's to blame?

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1 Who's to blame? on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:37 pm

cross-eyed

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Something to think about . . .this kind of landed on me today and I want to write it out before my mind buries it with "stuff". It's nothing complicated or lengthy, it's just one of those lightning strikes that happens with precision and speed from time to time.

You can use this analogy with any form of mass-transportation but I'm going to just use a city bus for the example. And that is in the form of a question. If you were a passenger on a bus full of other people and the bus goes off the road and into a ditch where it gets buried in mud . . . who would be to blame? The driver? Or the passenger?

Let's extend the question out . . .say a woman was about to give birth when the bus went off the road and with the mud oozing into the bus, she gives birth and the baby gets covered in mud as well. Who is responsible for the baby being born in mud? The baby? The mother? Or . . the driver?

When we were born, literally, how did we "become" sinners? Are we, individually at fault for being born into a world already existing with sin? Or are we like that baby on the bus that, due to lack of making good choices, the driver of the bus drove us off the road of truth? The driver being Adam. Am "I" personally to blame for arriving in this world of sin and being influenced and lured into muddy places? Is this whole process all about becoming aware of who is to blame? Or is it about being raised "out" of the mire?

If "I" personally did nothing to make the bus drive into the ditch, why then should I have to follow specific stipulations to get the bus back on the road again? Why do I need to confess the fact that the bus went off the road before God puts me back on it again? I was just a passenger. I still "am" just a passenger. Am I expected to now begin driving the bus once God has put it back on the road?

The ball is rolling . . . any thoughts?

2 Re: Who's to blame? on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:14 pm

LindaY


As a baby, get the baby out of the mud. Wash the baby off.

3 Re: Who's to blame? on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Guest


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Timely thoughts. Was thinking about this this morning. That is why I can't believe that God was ever "angry" at us. The creation was subjected to futility not willingly. Not that we aren't to learn to discern good and evil, but the idea that we are the object of God's wrath for something that is not our fault in the first place seems kinda... futile.

4 Re: Who's to blame? on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:56 pm

cross-eyed

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Jeremy1 wrote:Timely thoughts. Was thinking about this this morning. That is why I can't believe that God was ever "angry" at us. The creation was subjected to futility not willingly. Not that we aren't to learn to discern good and evil, but the idea that we are the object of God's wrath for something that is not our fault in the first place seems kinda... futile.


Eggggg Zackly!!!!

But try to tell the typical Christian that. . .it never ends well. Neutral

5 Re: Who's to blame? on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:47 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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and an added thought:

Circumstances determine our choices and the choices of God determine the circumstances

Jugg



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

6 Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:09 pm

Hibbs


Wonderful illustration...so many ways to look at it.

Before addressing, however, I just want to apologize to Nathan for taking offense some time ago at things that were posted. I have been praying about it for some time and realize that I was in the wrong spirit...even if I still believe that my position was correct. It is amazing how quickly we will contend for a theological doctrine and think that we are "contending for the faith". Again my apologies to all.

As I prayed about this scenario many thoughts came to mind:

Who is driving the bus? What if the bus was going along on the road of truth and a mudslide came? Now that the bus is in the mud, do the passengers have any need (duty or responsibility??) to help right the bus and push it out of the mud? Is the bus too big for the passengers to accomplish anything? Or, by working together, might they find the strength to again get the bus on the way? If they have a phone, should they call for assistance? If a tow truck operator happened to be one of the passengers, should he take charge of the rescue effort?

Or...maybe we need to get a lawyer and sue the bus driver and the bus company, or the state highway commission for the condition of the road, or the construction company that built the road, or the designer of the bus...after all somebody must be to blame. What about the thought that "I should have prayed more before getting on this bus"? After all...blame and guilt are such constructive concepts and produce such a wonderful blessing...or...not.

7 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:31 pm

Guest


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Hibbs wrote:Who is driving the bus? What if the bus was going along on the road of truth and a mudslide came? Now that the bus is in the mud, do the passengers have any need (duty or responsibility??) to help right the bus and push it out of the mud? Is the bus too big for the passengers to accomplish anything? Or, by working together, might they find the strength to again get the bus on the way? If they have a phone, should they call for assistance? If a tow truck operator happened to be one of the passengers, should he take charge of the rescue effort?

Or...maybe we need to get a lawyer and sue the bus driver and the bus company, or the state highway commission for the condition of the road, or the construction company that built the road, or the designer of the bus...after all somebody must be to blame. What about the thought that "I should have prayed more before getting on this bus"? After all...blame and guilt are such constructive concepts and produce such a wonderful blessing...or...not.

Who is driving the bus? Adam, in this analogy. What if the bus was going along on the road of truth and a mudslide came? So it seems. Didn't Adam meet an adversary in the garden that was worthy to temporarily defeat the level of impeccability he possessed as he was created? Now that the bus is in the mud, do the passengers have any need (duty or responsibility??) to help right the bus and push it out of the mud? If we can. Is the bus too big for the passengers to accomplish anything? Or, by working together, might they find the strength to again get the bus on the way? We will not know unless we make the attempt. And in doing so, we might learn more about each other and our Lord (the Guy Who made the passengers and the driver and the bus and the timetables and the landslide and all of that). If they have a phone, should they call for assistance? Why not? unless the driver has already done so. If a tow truck operator happened to be one of the passengers, should he take charge of the rescue effort? He would be a likely candidate to oversee some aspects.

Or...maybe we need to get a lawyer and sue the bus driver and the bus company, or the state highway commission for the condition of the road, or the construction company that built the road, or the designer of the bus...after all somebody must be to blame. What about the thought that "I should have prayed more before getting on this bus"? After all...blame and guilt are such constructive concepts and produce such a wonderful blessing...or...not. You pretty much lost me right after the first paragraph, Mark. It all seems thoughtful up to that point, but perhaps it is all a straw man following?

8 Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:06 pm

Hibbs


Adam...the first or the last ADAM? Are we Adam on the bus? Or do we really think that we drive the bus?
Was the deception of the garden an oops moment, or was it pre-planned (i.e. made subject to futility...not willingly...)?
Can natural Adam overcome the serpent of deception or must it rather be by the spirit that we overcome (James: "Submit to God and resist the devil and he will flee")?
Is the effort to right the bus parallel to the efforts of religion to repent and get right with God?
To what measure are we able to get the "bus out of the mud?"...If at all?
Are not our efforts to right the bus disjointed and out of sync with the Lord?
Isn't the cellphone parallel to our duty to intercede? We receive not because we ask not or we ask amiss to consume it upon our lusts?
Can we recognize authority and submit one to another in such a way that we find the plan and purpose of God in everything? Who would be better suited to direct the bus recovery?

I separated the second paragraph because indeed he is a straw man...a man of dirt focused upon himself. It never ceases to amaze me, however, at how many that claim to be christian will follow that line of thought and the idea of blame or that "it's not fair that I am in the mud" and never get beyond the problem and find the promise. When we realize that God put us on a planet that is beyond our control and that this planet was on a road destined to become stuck in the mud... we could look at the flood and the condition after the waters began to recede...or we could look at the flood of lies and deception that overwhelm in this present day when truth is rejected so often...it is only hope in God and His love that can right this "bus". It is also in realizing that the problem with the "mud" is the love of the lie rather than the truth. The biggest lie is still the first lie...that we can be "like God" through our own soulish efforts and by studying and learning at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It seems to me that we only come to realize the futility of looking at ourselves (the people of the second paragraph) and our self interest and desire for self preservation, that ever brings us to looking to God and His nature of love to prevail. It is as truth begins to resound that grace and mercy begin to flow freely and the mud begins to wash away.

Anyway...just some ramblings as the "bus" sloshes along.

9 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:19 pm

LindaY


It never ceases to amaze me, however, at how many that claim to be christian will follow that line of thought and the idea of blame

Were you ever in this place Hibbs? Those who "claim" to be christian? We walk around in these bodies daily and the self part of us is daily drug around like a ball and chain, I know. Would we choose this for ourselves if we knew how to get out of it? If you have arrived at a place of perfection, I commend you. Please pray for my deliverance from myself.

10 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:29 pm

Guest


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Hibbs wrote:Adam...the first or the last ADAM? Are we Adam on the bus? Or do we really think that we drive the bus?

Me, as the passenger and the driver. I hadn't thought of it like that, but it came up in another thread this morning. The driver could be the one following the false teachings and propelling others down that same path, as many as choose to go along with him. Have I not been both men on this bus? If ever I misrepresent the nature and authority of our Creator then I indeed steal from my fellows that day. Whoever he is, the driver is a thief, though he still works within the bounds of Providence and it is impossible for him to produce anything but good for those who are the Lord's.

11 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:35 pm

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Wow, listen to that judgmental so-and-so. Who is that "thief" who guides us into the mudslide of God's choosing for us? Yeah, God would probably have us try to work together and by His might to right the bus. It would probably mean something to Him just to watch.

12 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:41 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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This would have been my pick. Very Happy

Yeah, God would probably have us try to work together and by His might to right the bus. It would probably mean something to Him just to watch.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

13 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:46 pm

LindaY


Hibbs,

I would like to apologize to you for jumping so quickly. There is no excuse for that. Please forgive me?

14 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:16 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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For me, I may take another view of things really.

I see our hard times and down places, (in the Mud) as an opportunity to see The One we Love come into manifestation before our eyes.

Did I always see it this way? no. Smile Of course not. But I have learned this through the years. The mud places, can be turned into Golden places when we believe in what we can't see, and be still in what we can see.

Stilling the natural mind of worry, and stress, and things that could happen if we don't do something "Right Now", is not the "Way" we should live.

There is ONLY ONE "Way" to receive anything from The Father's hand and that is Through Faith in Him.

But again, if we do not allow Him to persuade us of His Faithfulness, we will never be able to abide in that place of believing through the mud.

But if we're always trying to fix the problem, then how will we see Him, instead of Us? And how will we know if was Him, or us? That's why I believe that we find ourselves in places that we just cannot do anything about, so that we can See Him, and Know that it's Him.

As I posted above, it's in our Nature to try to fix the problem. But usually find that it will not work, and then it goes from one extreme to the other. Such as, well he/she wasn't pushing hard enough, or the pregnant lady on the bus still is holding us back, or what ever. Frustration of not being able to fix something, leads to the pointing of fingers. IMHO. Smile

If we Trust, we cannot fear, if we fear we are not Trusting.
For he that believes in Him, shall never be ashamed.

If I ever find myself feeling ashamed of something I did, or said, then I also find myself, of this scripture becoming true. I just wasn't believing.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

15 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:03 pm

cross-eyed

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Excelent responses!!

I have another question.

Would it matter if I "was" the driver? Even if I did it on purpose . . .would God react any differently in lifting me out of the mud? Do we think it's God's desire that we become mired down in the mud? "We" look for what created the problem . . . for me, I don't think God really cares what caused the problem, only that we call on him and allow him to lift us out of it . . .to give us strength to pass through it.

there is therefore, no condemnation . . .yes?

It again reminds me of the adulterous woman. It sounds to me like she "chose" to be in the arms of a married man. She was driving her own bus and "got caught" in the mud. Religion had already condemned her, and in all actuality, she didn't have a leg to stand on for a defense. There was no question to her guilt. We surely are a murderous bunch when left to our own interpretations of God's word are we not?

16 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:19 pm

Guest


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The Lord revealed that to me once, many years ago. He said, "David, you can't dig yourself into a hole so deep that I can't lift you right up out of it."

17 Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:42 pm

Hibbs


Linda;

There is a perfection in the spirit and we all have been given access into that perfection through the cross and the blood. Like everyone else, I find that I struggle with bi-polar disorder...I swing between flesh and spirit. As Christians, we are new creatures In Him.Apart from Him are we not yet carnal? Is there any good thing in our flesh (not referring to our body)? As we mature, we recognize more and more which nature is responding. If we say that we have no sin, the truth is not in us and we lie but if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The simple test of every decision is to look to see where that decision is centered. Is it based upon me, myself and I; or is it based upon Christ and His love? A child always looks at the situation from their personal perspective but as we grow we begin to see things in a larger way.

In no way were my comments intended to suggest that I am perfect in myself. Nor to suggest that I abide in Him to the measure that He has purposed for us all. I have found in 28 years of representing "christians", however, that brother still takes brother to court (not all clearly) and many still complain that "it's just not fair." I also find that few really pray for their enemy, or love their enemy, or suffer themselves to be defrauded, or agree with their adversary while they are yet on the way, or keep covenants faithfully or even think that giving such counsel can in anyway make sense. They compartmentalize their spiritual and daily lives instead of applying the Word and the Spirit to every situation. Small wonder the world is in such a mess.

18 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:01 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Nathan, you touched on something that I brought up to Scherryl the other day;

Does God really care that we believe He exists?

Foe me, I do not see it as a priority for Him simply because when we believe the message He brings (His sound) that in itself manifests His existence.

It is like seeing ourselves in this forum .... in everything we discuss are we trying to prove our own existence to another? What I see here is: we each speak of what we know and by it others recognize a work being done "in" all of us thereby proving His existence "in" all of us.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

19 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:04 pm

cross-eyed

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Very well said, bro.

20 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:09 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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jugghead wrote:Nathan, you touched on something that I brought up to Scherryl the other day;

Does God really care that we believe He exists?

Foe me, I do not see it as a priority for Him simply because when we believe the message He brings (His sound) that in itself manifests His existence.

It is like seeing ourselves in this forum .... in everything we discuss are we trying to prove our own existence to another? What I see here is: we each speak of what we know and by it others recognize a work being done "in" all of us thereby proving His existence "in" all of us.

I knew you'd catch that, Very Happy I almost said something about it, but just decided to wait. LOL

Indeed, very well put.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

21 Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:22 pm

Hibbs


Knowing...isn't that the whole point of the exercise...that we might Know Him?

I think that the mud is a necessary step even as passing through the wilderness of sin. As we grow older and experience more of life...failures, warts and all...we come to realize that we are incapable of success in ourselves and that we must have help to progress. Every bus that leaves the garden depot is destined to have a mud encounter. It is as we learn to look up and see the face and love of God that we overcome. I 'm mindful of some of the old hymns:

I was sinking deep in sin, far from the peaceful shore...

Many of those hymns addressed the muck and the mire of our existence apart from God. It is when we realize that the righteousness of natural Adam will never suffice, that grace...amazing grace becomes our hope and plea. Many never look outside of themselves until they see the mud...sometimes up to the ears and eyeballs. In the process we come to know ourselves and then...through His love...Know Him Who died for us.

22 Re: Who's to blame? on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:31 pm

LindaY


I also find that few really pray for their enemy, or love their enemy, or suffer themselves to be defrauded, or agree with their adversary while they are yet on the way, or keep covenants faithfully or even think that giving such counsel can in anyway make sense. They compartmentalize their spiritual and daily lives instead of applying the Word and the Spirit to every situation.

I understand Hibbs. We know how much time is spent praying though and suffering to be defrauded and agreeing with their adversary and keeping covenants faithfully. Not everything is manifested immediately.

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