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1 The two witnesses on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:11 pm

Y'Israel

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I would love to hear from everyone here about these "2" figures of mystery as this has been on my heart now for some time now.

I'll get into verses later, but for a short summary of what I see through scripture, that is with Israel being the whole world, there are only 2 types who speak for God. Those being true witnesses, and the other being false. Both having power from above to prophesy.

This being shown by the split between the two houses (Judah and Israel).

Also being that their are but two types of witnesses, their must be a judge between them. As one cannot be both a witness and a judge, it is to the tribe of Dan to handle this capacity.


These are just some of the things that are on my mind. Hopefully her we can expand upon these as I am seeing more and more coming out in belief in the salvation of all.

2 Re: The two witnesses on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:20 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy!!! This has not been discussed on here yet.


I can't wait to hear what others have seen in this too.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

3 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:29 am

A.R.T.I.C

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Ok, I'll be the first to step up.

First I would like to hear more Israel of what you are seeing, when you have the chance.

Secondly, I think you and I had talked about this briefly in a PM one time before, and I seen it a little differently. But, I am always open for change and new understanding. After all that is why we're here to learn from each other, through the Christ in you.

The way I have always seen the Two Witnesses is, The Law and The Prophets, in The Embodiment of Jesus Christ, marked out by the 3 1/2 yrs., 42 mths. and 1260 days, as Christ's Ministry here in the earth.
Because He is The True and Faithful Witness of God.
In Him dwells The fullness of The Godhead bodily.
He is The Living Word. He is The Law/Word, and The Prophets/word of God.

He Himself said I have come to fulfill The law and the prophets, Mat.5:17 and you see this on the mount of Transfiguration, when Moses/Law, and Elijah/prophet disappeared, all that was left was Jesus Christ, The two in ONE. Not two individuals, but Two witnesses of His Word.
Jesus was always pulling from the Law to teach, but with the quickening of The Spirit of that Word.

I believe this is a basic principle of The Kingdom of God, that there should always be Two witnesses. For out of the mouth of two or three shall the thing be established, but not one. When The Law is seen through the quickening of The Holy Spirit, what is revealed, is it not always The Christ of God? (not the man, but the Christ).

This to me is very prophetic, in the sense that we are a corporate body who now have within us these two witnesses, through The Christ in us The Hope of Glory.

For it is The Testimony of Jesus Christ, that "is" the Spirit of Prophecy. And these two are called to do just that, Prophesy, in days/sun, in mths./moon, and in yrs./stars.

So to sum it all up, I believe that it is The Quickened Word in us, The Christ in Us, who are the witnesses in the earth.

And they did lay dead in the street for 3 1/2 days in The ONE body of Jesus Christ.

I love the way it reads in a proper translation.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies (body, singular), shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (in the world).

We were Crucified "With" Christ that faithful day, and now, it/we, is being made manifest to the world.

Did He not call us, to come up hither? The same as the two witnesses of God in Rev. yes, they are within us as a (singular) body, as He is so are we in this world.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.


Anyhow, that's my two cents worth. Ok, show me something that I may have overlooked Israel. I'm ready. bounce bounce bounce bounce Very Happy

Blessings Wink







The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

4 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:47 am

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Scherryl wrote:Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy!!! This has not been discussed on here yet.


I can't wait to hear what others have seen in this too.

Blessings

If you think about it, it has been discussed, just in a different context and what I mean by that is:

because we already understand that all physical things testify of spiritual things, would not Judah (that from which Christ came out of [God]) and Israel (that from which we come out of [world])be the bigger picture of:

Christ came out of the Father into the world and we come out of the world into the Father.

And because we have come to understand that it is to all fit together in the pattern of the tabernacle, Judah is our heart and Israel is our mind, the two witnesses "in" us that testify of Christ. And Christ is the judge (mediator) between our heart and mind by making them one, by bringing them to peace in agreement rather than disagreement.

also that they also are representations of "the law" and "the flesh" with "the flesh" being first of the world (natural) and then of God (spiritual). We are first a vessel of dishonor because our flesh (body) is of the world and then the transformation by the renewing of the mind and the changing of the heart of stone into flesh changes our body into a vessel of honor for God.

The law testified of Christ and now because of our transformation our flesh now also testifies of Christ and that is seen through our physical actions, but it is the physical actions of spiritual things, meaning love, compassion and forgiveness being manifested through our body by what has taken place "in" us.

And is this not a picture of what John said:

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us

Rick



Last edited by jugghead on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

5 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:59 am

A.R.T.I.C

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That's very true Jugg. We have discussed it just not in the context of The Two Witnesses.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

6 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:18 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Scherryl wrote:That's very true Jugg. We have discussed it just not in the context of The Two Witnesses.

Blessings

And once again, His Spirit joins the two as one that no man can separate.

There are no words that can describe what I am feeling right now.

Rick



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

7 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:37 pm

Y'Israel

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Revelation 11:1-6

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


John was told to rise and to measure the temple and those that worship within it. Our bodies being the temple, wherein is true worship.

We then see those who are not measured, that being the court without the temple given to the Gentiles.


We know there are two types of people as one can ONLY be a servant of either God or mammon.

This theme occurs often in the bible (vessels of mercy and vessels of honor/mercy and vessels of dishonor/wrath). BOTH however given a purpose by God.



Isaiah 43:1-10

43 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.

9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.





8 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:45 pm

Y'Israel

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jugghead wrote:
Scherryl wrote:That's very true Jugg. We have discussed it just not in the context of The Two Witnesses.

Blessings

And once again, His Spirit joins the two as one that no man can separate.

There are no words that can describe what I am feeling right now.

Rick

And what are the "two"?

John 10:14-17

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

(His sheep always hear His voice)

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.



9 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:13 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Y'Israel wrote:Revelation 11:1-6

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Not to single something out and I do understand what you are saying by these verses, but was wondering if you see anything significant in the differences of the explanation of time.

Meaning, why is the same amount of time described as: one in months (v.2) and one in days (v.3)

I am not saying that I know the difference, I am saying that I would like to understand the difference.

Rick



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

10 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Y'Israel

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jugghead wrote:
Y'Israel wrote:Revelation 11:1-6

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Not to single something out and I do understand what you are saying by these verses, but was wondering if you see anything significant in the differences of the explanation of time.

Meaning, why is the same amount of time described as: one in months (v.2) and one in days (v.3)

I am not saying that I know the difference, I am saying that I would like to understand the difference.

Rick

I've never considered it but from what I see atleast on the surface is that months is in relation to the holy city (spiritual) and the days are represented by us who are yet clothed in sackloth.

If you have any insight, please share it. I am eager to hear.

11 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:15 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


If we look at the pattern of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, you have the outer court, the inner court and the Most Holy place. If we are the Temple of God, which we are, then the outer court would mean flesh would it not or the actual body?

I always associate months with moon/law I don't really know why other than I see it in the beginning, as the Greater and Lesser Light both being sources of Truth. Look at the definition of month,

kho'-desh
From H2318; the new moon; by implication a month: - month (-ly), new moon.
2318 khaw-dash'
A primitive root; to be new; causatively to rebuild: - renew, repair.

Could it be that the NEW Body of Christ cannot be measured? Spiritually speaking of course.

Now, the second verse here is in days, which I always associate with The Sun/Day star or Greater light, in my understanding under the sun would mean in the earth, as in Eccl. clothed in Sackcloth is in the Nature of Christ's Humility/Mourning would it not?

The definition for day is:
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

If the Greater light in the beginning is meant to rule over the day, and the Lesser light to rule over the night, And God sets the standard from the beginning as the Day being Light, and the Darkness as Night, can you see where I'm going with this?

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The Greater Light being The Gospel of The Kingdom/Sun/Day, The Lesser Light as The Law/night/moon.

Hope that doesn't confuse the issue.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
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12 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:23 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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This is where my understanding tends to differ from others, the picture I get about the court that is not to be measured is outside of the temple, meaning outside the temple walls.

the word "court" used in Rev 11:2 means yard and the word "without" means external, so I see it as what is outside the temple, meaning I see the court that is not to be measured as the world that surrounds us.

Which this understanding coincides with "what is being renewed" which is a reference to months.

And the days is of what is done in us "TO" renew our outside world, meaning the world that surrounds us. And this coincides with days in that we can measure our growth in our understanding but that "in" God, our understanding is limitless.

The two witnesses of God, I see as His mind (the Father)and His heart (the Son) working in us through His Spirit, renewing our mind and changing our heart making them two witnesses of God "in" this world through our flesh (body/skin).

My understanding of the layout of the tab is one of the curtains which are the outside walls of the tab are a representation of our body, it is "the skin" of the tab and the actual temple is what is inside of the skin, that being mind, heart and spirit, which this is how I see the outer, inner and HOH's, they are inside the skin; inside the body.

Hope this doesn't cause confusion.

Rick

And an added note, Moses had to pay attention to precise instructions (details)in the building of the "temporary" and "mobile" tab which I see as God paying precise attention to the construction of our temporary and mobile physical body.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

13 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:48 pm

Y'Israel

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You are correct, the outer court does represent the flesh, this being given to the Gentiles lost ten tribes). We however have no confidence in the flesh and therefore do not worship according to it.

Ezekiel 44:13-14

13 Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the Lord shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.

14 When the priests enter therein, then shall they not go out of the holy place into the utter court, but there they shall lay their garments wherein they minister; for they are holy; and shall put on other garments, and shall approach to those things which are for the people.

To enter into the inner court, a priest must change garments (the body of sins). To go back out into the outer court, he must change his garment back (the things that are "caesar" give to caesar, that which is God to God so to speak).

You may be right with the differences of months and days as the definition you posted furthers my surface understanding. The holy city (heavenly) are those who actually take residence there.

Isaiah 66:23-24

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Those who have taken off their garments to enter the inner room indeed cannot measure the kingdom as signified by the 144000, in which behind them a number no man can count (salvation of all)

Now when Jesus rose, we all were taken with Him. Everyone having access now, what has happened?

Ezekiel 44:5-23

5 And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.

6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,

7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.

9 Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.

13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:

16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.

17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.

18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.

20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.

21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.

22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.

23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Here we see "two" types of priests in these verses. Both having access to the inner room or the closet of our minds. The only place here that is separated and set apart to commune with God.


The priests who teaches Israel to worship idols have charge over the gates of the house. They however cannot enter the most holy place (heaven itself) being far from God being either uncircumcised or uncircumcised in heart. Nonetheless they are ministers in His sanctuary.




14 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:56 pm

Y'Israel

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But on the flip side of things as Jugghead pointed out, from the outer court and in the flesh it is the world who cannot be measured or counted as all will die as a sinner. It is here that the kingdom of God CAN be measured or counted, that number being again 144000.

15 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:09 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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I have always admired the gift you have for pulling out of the prophets to explain yourself, and to bring in a better understanding for me, (personally).

This is what I heard as I read;

Isa 29:22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
Isa 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

12x12 Government Personified, or 144 as a Gross, meaning The Whole of Something.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

16 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:24 pm

Y'Israel

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Jonah 3:6-8

6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

Lamentations 2:5-17

5 The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the Lord hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

7 The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the Lord, as in the day of a solemn feast.

8 The Lord hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.

9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the Lord.

10 The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground.

11 Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city.

12 They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.

13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

14 Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.

15 All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?

16 All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.

17 The Lord hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.

The two witnesses, both man and beast have put on sackcloth as God violently destroys His tabernacle. But of the false priests and their garments.


Malachi 2:16:17

16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

17 Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?


They cover violence with there sackcloth and riot in the Day time. Again as Sherryl pointed out about the days. As long as we are living, it is day.




17 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:57 pm

Y'Israel

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As stated earlier, seeing the two witnesses (both true and false) as God's, to prophesy:

1 Peter 4:10-13

10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


Both are given power as stated in Revelation to inflict curses, stop rain, etc. Does the bible give us a more specific outlining of this power?


Deuteronomy 11:26-28

26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy describes the blessings and the curses that we bestow upon the nations as ministers speaking the oracles of God.

We know that a false priest can shut heaven away for one who is say, a homosexual. Likewise a true priest can open heaven to the same. But as I pointed out earlier, who is in charge of the gates of the house? And for this reason the curse is poured out upon the nations and there is a gross darkness and famine in the land.





18 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:20 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Also something to consider Brother,

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

So did Elijah,

1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.



and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

So did Moses,

Exo 7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Blessings Smile




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19 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:26 pm

Y'Israel

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Hebrews 13:9-10

9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

We HAVE an altar (Christ the firstfruits in us as God has made His abode), and the tree of life, of which those that serve the tabernacle (in which is violently taken away by God) have no right to eat having given their ear to false gods.

20 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:38 pm

Y'Israel

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Scherryl wrote:Also something to consider Brother,

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

So did Elijah,

1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.



and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Ooo

So did Moses,

Exo 7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Blessings Smile

That's correct. But we knowing that our battle is not flesh and blood, and that the kingdom comes not with observation, these are symbolic of that which is within us.

Revelation 17:15

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


A Christian priest can for those who follow him, turn all who is say of Islam to blood and vice versa so to speak.

21 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:06 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Oh Absolutely, agreed.

But doesn't it all come down to, The Christ within us, The Living Word, that does all these things?

I'm just trying to figure out where the false, or those who don't have a right too, etc. those that without The Spirit of Truth, fits in with the Two Witnesses.

All things to me has been summed up in Christ now, and without Him abiding in us there is no Truth, no testimony, no witness.

The only witness would be darkness, ignorance, etc. how could these be a witness for God?

Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm truly trying to understand what your seeing.

For us who have the Spirit of Truth, all things good, bad or indifferent works together for our good, because we Love Him and are called according to His purpose, but, if the others are called to be witnesses of darkness how does that work out for them?

By the way have I told you how glad I am that your here? Smile




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
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22 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:36 pm

Y'Israel

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Scherryl wrote:Oh Absolutely, agreed.

But doesn't it all come down to, The Christ within us, The Living Word, that does all these things?

I'm just trying to figure out where the false, or those who don't have a right too, etc. those that without The Spirit of Truth, fits in with the Two Witnesses.

All things to me has been summed up in Christ now, and without Him abiding in us there is no Truth, no testimony, no witness.

The only witness would be darkness, ignorance, etc. how could these be a witness for God?

Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm truly trying to understand what your seeing.

For us who have the Spirit of Truth, all things good, bad or indifferent works together for our good, because we Love Him and are called according to His purpose, but, if the others are called to be witnesses of darkness how does that work out for them?

By the way have I told you how glad I am that your here? Smile


We all, even them, we are told to treat as though they speak the oracles of God.

Remember what Paul said? For even the lie is to the increase of the glory of God.

Now Moses is a vessel of honor. God knew him before the womb much like what is described in Jeremiah. But God also knew Pharaoh in the same way. For Moses displayed the mercy of God, but through Pharaoh, God made His power known.

Judas is another example of a vessel of dishonor. We know what he did, but was it not necessary? Somebody had to do it.

We see this principle in the workings of nature. Take a catfish for instance. Unclean animal by nature as it is a scavenger. We are told by nature not to eat of such animals. But even as an unclean animal, what is its purpose? To clean the dung of the ocean floor. It is such with vessels of dishonor as well. Although they are made to be destroyed, they also serve a purpose in making known the wrath of God.

We being vessels of mercy, we cannot then make known His wrath. That's their job so to speak. And hey, it's a dirty job but someone has to do it. It is God who kills as this power can only come from Him. Likewise it is He who then makes alive as He controls all whether through leading or blindness.



23 Re: The two witnesses on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:50 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Ok, now I see what your saying, yep, this is not new.
In fact this is something I learned from you through the Spirit a long time ago.

I don't know why I went blank on it now.
And it's because of those that are in that place that also reveals "our hearts".

And not only that, but the Light shines better in the midst of Darkness, within and without.

You most definitely, give me something to ponder on a little deeper.

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
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24 Re: The two witnesses on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:01 pm

cross-eyed

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I wrote up a reponse yesterday and logged off without sending it . . sigh . . . It's been REALLY interesting to read your responses so far. The more I know, the more I realize, the less I know.

This particular book will always be my personal favorite as it was through the transcribing of Randall Worley's tape series that I myself, became transformed for the first time in my thinking on kingdom perspectives. I became born-again-again.

If you've read any of what I've posted on those tapes, at the very beginning there were two things that carry GREAT importance. There has been a conversation about not measuring the outer court . . . where do I even begin here . . .

Everything is spiritual . . .everything is intended to be applied "inwardly". Everyone sees "differently" but all are seeing the same thing, only on different levels.

Did you know when you see a rainbow, the person standing next to you, observing the same rainbow, they are not actually seeing the exact same rainbow. It's made up of tiny droplets . .as we all know. When the light passes through them they become minature prisms.

the thing with a rainbow, even though it appears to be standing still, the droplets that create the image are constantly falling. Each person seeing the rainbow see only from "their" position and perspective. All are seeing different angles of the droplets, yet all are also seeing a rainbow.

When we enter into these kingdom places. . .when people start inquiring what perspectives others are seeing from, there will always be different perspectives . . but . . .we're all still seeing the same message. In other words . . .

IT'S OKAY TO SEE IT DIFFERENTLY . . .we're "supposed" to. We are a unique being with a PERSONAL relationship with the Father. We all see the message of promise (via the rainbow) but as individuals, the message we're seeing is not seen by anyone else but us because that's just how unique our relationship is. Remember the white stones that no MAN knows the name on it except the person to which it's given to. That's also in Revelation . . .and it's also about Jesus and us . . .and "me".

Beings that Revelation is just that, it's "a" revelation of one being . . Jesus Christ. Any other interpretation can only lead to confusion and more questions than resolutions. That's "one". Everything read in this particular book is pointing to the nature of Christ.

The temple referred to in Revelation is connected to the tabernacle of Moses which is as has been stated, a TYPE AND SHADOW . . .a sign that points to the substance. The outer-court then, is also a sign pointing to the substance, which is Christ. He is the yesterday, today and forever . . .can you measure forever?

Next, dimensions . . . on the surface, this book was written to a single generation of people. It was written to beleivers who were seeing their loved ones drug out into the streets and slaughtered because of their belief in Jesus. They were beleivers in hiding, living on the run, in caves, in fear. There was only one disciple left, the other eleven had been murdered by this point and time.

and the only disciple left had been captured and left on an island of criminals. They'd already tried to kill him and failed. So on this island, "the place of my killing". . .that's the definition of "Patmos". At the place of his killing, Jesus revealed himself to John. What we're reading, 2000 years later is a most intimate portrait of John's best friend. But it's not meant to be read by those who don't have an intimate relationship, thus, the symbolisms.

In the very beginning, it states it's written to the bondservants . . .Jesus revealed himself to his best friend. John wrote it to others who were also of a kindred nature in relationship to Christ. Bonservants, those who were offered their freedom to live according to their own choices, but their love for Jesus trumped it all and they chose Christ. It was not a book of torment and destruction. It was a book about being embraced by love. Without having a relationship of intimacy with the Father, the reader will never experience that understanding.

Keeping things in the context from which they were written will also help keep things on track. The context here for the two witnesses has a time frame that goes along with it. It's a revelation of Jesus. The characters in it then are also connected to Jesus as well . . . yes?

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

1260 days . . . when reading it on first dimensional understanding, it's a time-line. It's also already happened. If you take 30 days, which by the calendar of that day, every month had 30 days instead of what we have now. Take 1260 and divide it by 30 and you come to the number "42". Because we're looking at a time frame . . .take the 12 months in the year and divide that into the 42 and it comes to 3 1/2 years. 3 1/2 years is the same length of time as was Jesus' ministry. Can you see Jesus prophesying in saccloth as he carried out his plan?

Daniel's 70 weeks also coincides with Jesus' ministry. When the sacrifices end 3 1/2 days into the 7 days of prophecy, that was when Jesus was crucified. Did the sacrifices end? Not according to the religious leaders, but if you went according to them, Jesus wasn't the Messiah and he wasn't raised from the dead either. They continued on with the sacrifices for a while, but God had left the building the moment the veil was rent.

Jesus was the first witness . . . the second witness manifested at the Jordan river . .in the form of a dove. It was at that moment in the river that Jesus ministry and coronation literally began. 3 1/2 years from that point, when Jesus "gave up" his spirit, the two witnesses were trampled and killed.

Read this with the perception that it's speaking about the time during Jesus ministry . . .see if it fits for you.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


I really have to get back to work, but before I go . . .verse 4 for me is the most telling as to "who" the two witnesses are.

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Early on in Revelation when John is taken up in the spirit and he hears the voice BEHIND HIM and as he turns, who is it that he sees? Jesus IN the CANDLESTICK.

25 Re: The two witnesses on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:53 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Excellent Nathan,

I was just telling Israel in a PM, that even though what he was saying was truth, I couldn't make the connection to Christ and the finished work, specifically to ch.11 in Rev. and that will always be a problem for me if I can't see HIM.

It is first and foremost "The Revelation of Christ"
I know Eby, in "The candlestick to the throne" see's it as The Word and The Spirit as the two Witnesses.

Which again, is still Revealing The Christ of God.
To me the mount of Transfiguration was a key thing for me, as to seeing the Two Wit. For the Law and The Prophets are both still The Word which is the Christ.

And as He was Transfigured before them "IN HIM" was Both.

I gotta say when you brought up the the number 42 it was fascinating, because there are no more Generations after Christ, in the gen. in Mat.
He is the End, and our End is in Him.

Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

And this to me seeing the 3 1/2 yrs. of His ministry is very important, all things, including us and the whole world is summed up and saved in The Christ, all, all things have their fulfillment in HIM.

Blessings




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