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Had Church with a friend Yesterday . . .all day long

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Below is a conversation I was involved in throughout the day yesterday, it's long but there were some great things that came out in it that I thought would be good to post on here for your participation if you'd like as well.
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Hey Nathan,

I am still reading your book. On chapter about rapture. It is beyond amazing and I mean it.I am being blessed from almost every page!

Now here's the eternal question/problem for me and I hope you can shed a bit more light towards me. I am seeing more clearly that God is good and only capable of being and doing good. Your writings are helping me see this more clearly. I deal with people who are very basic which is creates a very good balance for me. Here is the dilemma for me.................

We sin. Why? We chose to eat of the tree of knowledge instead of just resting in God. Why? God made us male and female, Adam and Eve. Where did the weakness come from in the first place that caused to us to make a bad decision?

We were made capable of performing terrible evil. Why? There are people who suffer to the point of insanity while some of us suffer hang-nails.

Here are two asides...........I am thinking about excrement. Seriously. Think of the horrible waste that exits our bodies. What is that all about? We have these beautiful amazing bodies that create the most vile excrement. Got to be a message here.

Here is aside number two.........I can't remember where but close to this chapter and other places you imply we are our own worst enemies and I agree totally. I just wanted to see if you've ever noticed where Jesus says a man's enemies are those of his own household. That passage grabbed me hard a few years ago and it opened my eyes. The household is us. Jesus couldn't have said it any clearer, within my being are enemies.

Again Nathan, God is using you to open my eyes like never before but please help me with the above.

God is only good yet He created us with the ability (and bent?) to go down a path of indescribable evil. I am having a very hard time reconciling the two. I am not at all saying I think God is not good but I am wondering how much God is responsible for the evil we do. We chose our dark path but why?????????

Thanks my friend. I am off today so I am going to continue reading your book.

Why is this not published and on the bookstore shelves? I'm serious.

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I truly love the questions, this is what stirs the waters for/in me.

I'll hit each question but first, here's my premise. Simply put, it's not about "us". It's about Christ. I believe we're just consequencial fallout from love manifesting. Everything was not only created "by" Christ, but everything was created "for" Christ. Earth was created for man, but man was created for Christ. Why? It is because "we" are the evidence of God's love for his son. He created us so that love could visibly manifest. So that Jesus would be lifted up.

When you go dimensional, people often relate it to the peeling of an onion but it's not quite like that, it's more like onions within onions when it comes to the principles of God's nature and kingdom. Scripture states that the trees in the hills clap their hands. Jesus stated that if we try to silent others, the very rocks will cry out. Everything in this realm manifests the glory of Christ. We are not above the realm we live in, if we were, death and disease would not affect us. So . . .bottom line, man was not created so man could be illuminated. Man was created so Christ would be the recipient of the Father's love on every realm and level. With that being said . . .

You asked . . .
We sin. Why?

For me, this answer is going to appear redundant as I go through your questions because I think it relates to several of your questions. We sin because of Adam's choice to turn away from life and turn to knowledge for his sustenance. There's an addage, you are what you eat . . .Scripture states we become what we behold. . . .and as a man thinks, so is he . . . Adam ate the fruit from not just a tree, but a gateway, a threshold that led into the realm from which he was originally created . ..earthiness.

Adam was created from this earth, but then "placed" in the garden. He didn't walk there because it wasn't a place where natural flesh could just enter into. God placed him, he "ascended" him from the earth that he was created in, and he "placed" him in the garden . . .for me, the garden is not a natural place, but a spiritual state, a realm.

Adam walked with God in the cool of the day . . .in the "breath" of the day . . .in the SPIRIT of Christ, the daystar. But when he ate of the tree of "knowledge" he left the realm of dominion and he passed into the realm of death and decay. And even though he and Eve reproduced, all of the offspring are then also exposed to that same death and decay. That's us.

We sin because Adam left the realm of the Spirit and allowed the forces of death to rule over him. The natural realm, the "knowledge" we depend on in this realm is governed by laws that are opposite of the spirit. That's what Jesus was telling us when he said in the kingdom of God, the last is first, the greatest is least . .. it's a realm where the governing laws are opposite.

That's why we can love our enemies, turn the other cheek when we're facing attack . . . When Jesus came into this realm, he brought the keys of authority "with" him. When he overcame death, it broke the chain of command in this realm and enabled us to return to our dominion where time can not inflict it's death and decay.

We sin because as dimensional beings, we are still exposed and governed by natural forces that our bodies of flesh are bound to. Our spirits don't sin, it's our flesh that does. There "is" a difference. But it's been ingrained in us through our religious experiences that it's our "fault" that we sin and we need to confess our sin before we can be free of our sin.

That's actually a reversal of how the spiritual kingdom works. What would cause me to "want" to confess? Would it not be the spirit at work within me? Which would then mean that freedom has already happened within me "before" the confession of my sin. All that really means is, once the Spirit of life in us reveals "to" us that we're redeemed, our confession is not to become free, our confession is the result of already entering into that freedom.

How many times have you realized how close you were to a terrible event or experience in your life "after" it had already passed? As you look back you think "wow, that could have been way worse than what it was . . ."

"That" is what confession is, you're admitting that you were vulnerable to death, you were out of place . . .you were off the mark, which is all "sin" really means. But the point is, your confession is not trumpeting all of your present shortcomings, it's proclaiming that God's Grace superceded those shortcomings.

You ever wonder about passages like the woman caught in adultery and the religious leaders threw her in front of Jesus, thinking he was going to have to judge her as they would . . .in the end, the last thing he said to her was . . .go and SIN NO MORE. Do you really think she all of the sudden became Mother Theresa? It says in 1 John 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So . . . why do we sin? Answer #1, we don't. Explaination to answer #1 . . . we're still thinking in terms of "this" realm and not in terms of the spiritual realm. Having the mind of Christ enables us to see the world through God's perspective rather than seeing God through the worlds perspective.

Paul was trying to explain this as well when he posed the question "Does that mean we can keep on living ungodly lives? Absolutely not!! . . ."

How about if you put it this way, sin can only be measured according to natural realm understanding. When you're in the spirit, there is no measurement of sin because GRACE abounds, it over rides the measurement of sin.

You asked
We chose to eat of the tree of knowledge instead of just resting in God. Why?

See answer to question #1 . . . I have a question for you . . .what did you "do" to become a sinner? Did you have to make a conscious decision to be one? Did you have to walk up in front of a bunch of strangers and declare your perfections and your choice to want to lay them down so you can now be a sinner? Did you have to openly denounce God and attend meetings, pay sums of money and read pagan books???

Or . . .

Was it something that you were already BORN into? You had no control over it, you weren't even aware that it existed. When you were born, you were born in innocense, but you were also born in sin. So . . .if you didn't "do" anything to become a sinner, how is it that we've accepted the premise that you have to "do" anything to become redeemed? What did you "do" to "be" redeemed?

I could go through the list of options again that the church has again ingrained in us, but the truth is, we didn't "do" anything to be redeemed. It was already done FOR us!! The change that happens in us is the AWARENESS THAT WE ARE ALREADY REDEEMED. THAT'S what the gospel does. It doesn't try to convince you that you're hell-bound forever if you don't CHOOSE to be something you're not. The gospel merely raises the awareness that the price has already been paid for you and you don't have to be bound by the death and decay all around you.

We eat of the wrong tree because we were born in THIS realm . . .this is the inward embodiment of knowledge. The fact that it's written as a "tree" is merely a metaphor, a visual. The beauty of this is, in spite of being in a realm of death and decay, there is a seed of life in everyone of us that can never be destroyed by the forces of this realm. Our flesh doesn't comprehend the Rest of God and what it doesn't comprehend, it wants to resist. It's up to us to ALLOW the spirit in us to take captive those thoughts of death and decay and LET the power of love and light replace them within us.

I gotta go back . . .I'm late but I'll add more . . .love the questions!!!!

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So thankful for the quick response but I understand you are busy. Here goes. I fully understand things like I didn't choose to be a sinner so I know I don't 'have to choose' to be saved................

Just wanted to say the above now I have to think......hopefully with the mind of Christ...............here goes....... You said we don't sin. You mean we, the spiritual beings we are, do not sin, correct. We of course do sin in the natural realm, correct?

I want to keep this very simple. I really like the direction you are leading me. This is all about Christ. Could you explain that a bit? Is this a way of saying God is expressing Himself to and for Himself? We are but the vehicles of this mode of expression? Would you describe us as 'thoughts' or the 'mindful' workings within God HImself? We (all the natural realm) are the living realities of God 'thinking'?

OK, now back to my more rudimentary question. I will play devil's advocate. Are you saying a person who is horribly tortured, raped, and whatever are the natural consequences of love manifesting?

Also I understand a bit why we sin but I guess my main question here is, isn't God responsible for all our suffering? I mean ultimately? We are a consequential fallout of a work of love He has going so does that mean our waywardness which leads to realities like mans inhumanity to man is His doing in the sense that it is His ultimate plan?

Here's an aside. I really liked your teaching on 'the cool of the day'. I looked it up and noticed the actual phrase only occurred after Adam ate of the tree. Are you assuming this is what Adam and God did before this eating took place? I can sure understand this to be true but I am hungry for a bit more insight from you. I totally see something.

I think I see that we were with God in some pure form before this 'hell on/in earth' started. I think we even had a hand in our 'lowering' ourselves into this quagmire kind of like Jesus Himself. This helps me understand the genesis of what's going on with us. Like if we were soldiers and our General told us that He needed people to perform a very difficult and horrible mission for the good of all, any volunteers? If I volunteered for this it sheds a whole new light on everything for me. I have not much to go on with this but maybe you do? Or am I way off base here?

OK, I'll stop for now with this: Is God ultimately responsible for the rapes and tortures that take place amongst us? I'm talking rapes and tortures in the physical and spiritual arenas.

I will read and keep reading your last post to me so don't think the time and energy you are taking to reply to me is wasted one bit. This email to you now is a quick response and you may have answered some of this already so I will re-read and thank you so much.
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You asked
isn't God responsible for all our suffering?


It's like this, you set up an electric fence to keep the cows in a pasture . . but then your child comes up and grabs a hold of the electric fence . . .after you instructed them specifically not to . . . and in human logic, the blame is on you. But the truth is, the fence was not intended to be a part of the childs life. It had a completely different purpose.

To me, the tree of knowledge is the same thing. The garden of Eden . . .big picture here . . . is like the workings of a battery . . .there HAS to be a positive and there HAS to be a negative . . .BOTH are required for electricity to manifest. But in Adam's case, he left the positive and embraced the negative. We are the bridge between spiritual and natural, we can live in the natural and yet walk in the spiritual . . .we're not to embrace the ground, we're to walk in the balance of the two and the power will then flow through us . . .Adam broke the spiritual circutry when he embraced the negative post.

Back to your context.

OK, now back to my more rudimentary question. I will play devil's advocate. Are you saying a person who is horribly tortured, raped, and whatever are the natural consequences of love manifesting?
No. I'm saying person who is horribly tortured and raped is the consequences of Adam breaking the circuitry of God's original alignment by embracing knowledge over life. This realm of life has always existed, but it wasn't predominant in the garden. In the garden the spirit was what was visible and the natural is what was invisible. You had to go through one of the gateways to cross over from one to the other. Problem was, once you went through the negative one, there's no returning without a redemptive act . . .a realigning. And that's what Jesus did. Note after Adam was driven out that a mighty angel (message) WITH a FLAMING sword (Word of God/Christ/consuming fire) was placed at the gardens GATE to KEEP the way of the tree of Life. We've been taught by the church that this was merely an angel placed there to keep us out . . .seriously? Think about the logic on that one. I don't believe the message and the consuming/purifying sword was placed there to keep anyone out, I beleive it was placed there as a beacon to lead us back in!!

Is God ultimately responsible for the rapes and tortures that take place amongst us? I'm talking rapes and tortures in the physical and spiritual arenas.
I'm not sure there's a straight, black and white answer for this one. Yes, God did create the earth in which we live. But again, he is light and in him there is no SHADOW OR TURNING . . . there's no death, no destruction . . .that's all from the result of walking away from the light and embracing the darkness of knowledge. There "is" a passage in Scripture that talks about God creating a destroyer . . .

You said in your most recent reply

I want to keep this very simple. I really like the direction you are leading me. This is all about Christ. Could you explain that a bit? Is this a way of saying God is expressing Himself to and for Himself? We are but the vehicles of this mode of expression? Would you describe us as 'thoughts' or the 'mindful' workings within God HImself? We (all the natural realm) are the living realities of God 'thinking'?
Is this a way of saying God is expressing Himself to and for Himself?
YES!!
Would you describe us as 'thoughts' or the 'mindful' workings within God HImself?YES AGAIN! And very well worded. I never heard it put that way, but that's exactly what we're saying here. The existence of man is a living reality of the heart and thoughts of God's love for his Son . . .wow . . .yeah, you hit that one on the head.

As to the idea that this is all about Christ, I'll hit two birds with one stone on this. You mentioned later on in your response of how we may have played a role in our lowering ourselves to this realm . . . think about the focus of that particular thought . . .is it on Christ more than us? Or is it on us more than Christ? For us to be a part of the choice in lowering ourselves, that's elevating man up to the same level as the redemptive Christ.

In essence, it's saying we chose to play a role in his crucifixion by electing to be the purpose for his crucifixion. The message there is of course including his work on the cross which "seems" great, but it's also givng a share of the credit for what he did on the cross back to us. That raises a bit of a red flag for me.

I "do" see and believe, however, that we existed before we manifested in this realm. There's even a hint (for me anyway) of this back in Genesis where the Holy Spirit hovered/moved upon the face of the "waters". The word "waters" there is actually connected to 'semen".

Think about the act of reproduction in the natural as you read Genesis 1:1. The spirit is "moving" over the waters like a man "moves" over a woman. For seed to be released, it requires motion. The word "face" there speaks to me of "identity". Not just surface, what's on top, but the actual nature. It's the last thing that happens before LIGHT manifests. Before life comes forth, before the seed is released. The reason I went through all of that is because for me . . ."that's" where man was created. We were birthed in the act of intimacy WITHIN the Father . . . much like what you were saying with the idea that "we" are the expression of his thoughts.

Uh oh . . .I'm late again . . .this is turning out to be a fun day for me!!!
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From your original context . . .

You asked
God made us male and female, Adam and Eve. Where did the weakness come from in the first place that caused to us to make a bad decision?

The weakness, where did it come from . . .great question . . .let's go deeper. What "was" the weakness? Did it "originate" in Eve? Was it something in her that came out? Or was it something outside of her that got in?

For me, it's the latter. The weakness came from the serpent, not from Eve. She was doing fine until the serpent "weakened" her resistance. What was the serpents focus? The negative post . . .the tree of knowledge. The understanding is the reason why the serpent went to Eve instead of Adam was because Eve was the weaker of the two. But . . .what if. . .

What if it's not about her weakness, what if it was even deeper than that? Are you familiar with Romans 8:16? Where it says 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: It's a spirit to spirit relationship, yes?

So in the garden there is a representation of spirit and soul with Adam being spirit and Eve being soul. Then there's carnality . . .is it spiritual or natural? Many religious would claim perhaps it's a spiritual manifestation of demonic activity, but I don't agree anymore with that.

I believe carnality is the identity of the natural realm in it's cursed state. The curse manifested when it began producing thorns and thistles and Adam's identity became bound to labor, the slavemaster of carnality. Jesus emphasis was not about labor, it was instead about rest; easy yokes; light burdens . . .Jesus was making preparations to reverse the curse that Adam had inflicted. But I digress . . .

Earthiness, carnality distracted Eve, not Adam because Adam represents spirit and Eve represents the soul. My soul is not spiritual, God doesn't speak to my soul, he speaks to my spirit. "Through" that relationship, my soul is renewed. If my soul was spiritual, why would it then need to be renewed? That leads to the question of where do our "thoughts" come from? My soul or my spirit?

For me, My spirit doesn't "think". It simply "knows". My mind does the thinking. And my mind is limited to everything known. It comprehends fragments, but my spirit sees the whole and only when the alignment is in proper order, does the whole become reality around me. The hardest thing to do is be led by the spirit when for so long, we've convinced ourselves that's what we've been doing when instead it's been just the opposite.

The weakness was not "in" man. When God made man, he said it was "good". Being spiritually weak is not good. But as Paul pointed out, when he is 'weak" then he is "strong". It's all about where you place your confidence. If you put it in what you know, then your mind "thinks" it's strong, but spiritually, you've made yourself weak. Why? Because the kingdom of God doesn't operate on the same level as the kingdom of this earth.

They're opposite from one another . . .just like . . .the negative and the positive posts of the battery. I also think that's the explanation as to why we have these bodies at all. This body is the conduit and the completion of the circiutry . . .I like that word even though I've been mis-spelling it the whole time. But when my spirit dwells in this body and my soul manifests the evidence of that, I'm walking as a complete circuit. There's a spirit (positive) dwelling in a body of flesh (negative) and the soul is the illumination, the evidence that things are aligned within me.

But carnality isn't spiritual . . .that's really the whole point I'm trying to pound on in a long, drawn-out way. Eve wasn't weak in and of herself. She "became" weakened by the pull of carnality, it could only affect "her" because again, she represents that which is not spiritual, but soulish. And because we all have souls, we all still have the potential, every moment we live and breathe, to become carnal ourselves; to be influenced by it's wooing and be stunted by it's poison.

Okay . . .I have ten minutes for the next question you threw out there . . .

You asked . . .
We were made capable of performing terrible evil. Why? There are people who suffer to the point of insanity while some of us suffer hang-nails
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It's not that we were "made" that way. We were made in his image and likeness and God is not capable of doing evil. The reason why we "are" capable is because carnality has infiltraited in our nature and it's taken over. The power of sin . . . Those that are not aware of the freedom that is now in them for the past 2,000 years, are still bound by their own desires . . .and flesh kills, even to the extent of killing itself. Only spirit gives life.

Even the religious gospel has been tainted by the threat of death and destruction in the process of trying to proclaim salvation. People turn from the darkness of sin to the bondage of religion and call it freedom. Religion is the result of mixing spiritual truth with natural reasoning . . .it's "about" God but it's got a touch of carnality sprinkled in it so the message becomes perverted in the process.

The other piece to the carnality is it's inconsistent. it's like the earth's atmosphere . . .there are pockets of air with no oxygen that you can't see, but the moment you get in a small airplane, you become aware of them immediately. It's the same way with the effects of carnality. It will always lead to destruction, just different speeds with different personalities. But the thing to remember is, regardless of how bound, how caught up they are in the carnality, they are just as redeemed as the saints . . .they just aren't aware of it so life becomes a living hell for them.

My ten minutes is up again.
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Good stuff Nathan, If you don't mind I still need to tap your being again. You say it was something outside of Eve (soul) that got in that is the cause of weakness. Yet God made man (spirit, soul and body) and said it was good. If it was good why was it vulnerable to the serpent? How could the serpent weaken the soul which was under the 'protection' of the spirit (Adam)? This does not sound good or even possible unless God made man 'perfectly imperfect' or intentionally weak for good reasons of His own. Did God make man with the intention of man not sinning?

Nathan, do you see that God foresaw all our cruelty and pain and suffering? Did God see
the rapes of innocent children and all other man's inhumanity to man, when He started the whole human process? Like a master chess genius, I have to believe God knew all that would be involved when creating man.

By the way, you can share anything of mine/our interactions that you see fit with anyone you want. I'd be honored.

Nathan, in all these interactions please be patient with me. I know I can be exasperating and slow to understand but that's why I keep asking.
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The creation is never better or greater than the creator. I think this is again steering us away from the overall purpose of man. For Jesus to become our "redeemer" there had to be something there to redeem . . .this isn't about "us" it's about "Christ". keep in mind, yes, God does love and cherish every one of us, but we're merely vessels. We were created "for" Christ, not the other way around. Jesus didn't come to die for us as much as he came to resurrect us. But for him to resurrect us, he had to die . . .and for us to "be" resurrected . . .we had to be dead. So what happened in the garden was inevidible.

And yeah, God knew there'd be great torture and bloodshed but again, he didn't create that, we did by embracing knowledge over life. We are the ONLY beings created that have the ability to create. We can build up, and we can also destroy. Walking in the spirit enables you to build . . .walking in the flesh drives you to destroy.

Keep in mind, were sin abounds, grace abounds even more .. .where torture exists, rest and freedom overflow as well. Jesus did say in this world there are trials and tribulation . . .which for me he's saying hell is here. But . . .rather than get bogged down in the aftermath of the destruction, be of good cheer for he's overcome this world and every evil thing taking place within it.

We look at the cross as a tragic thing, but in God's eyes, that was the highest honor he could give his son. Remember also that kingdom principles are the opposite from our logic and reasoning . . . the mind is always at enmity with God . . .it's always wanting to argue God's principles and logic, because the mind is not infinite . . .it's not capable of drawing to the same conclusions as spiritual principles without personal revelation from the Father himself.

A.R.T.I.C

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That was a very interesting conversation Nathan, thank you for sharing with us.

I am one who would never throw out the baby with the bath water so to speak. You had some excellent replies and analogies, which you know that I have always appreciated with you.

But,..in all of this persons questions, there was one that they continually wanted an answer that would satisfy there hungry heart, and I'm afraid that with your holding on to the tradition of Adam being made in His image and His likeness and having dominion, will never be able to answer them properly.

This question right here is what I have run into most of all with people, and it is a very, important one, and a very reasonable one to say the least.

Quote

Good stuff Nathan, If you don't mind I still need to tap your being again. You say it was something outside of Eve (soul) that got in that is the cause of weakness. Yet God made man (spirit, soul and body) and said it was good. If it was good why was it vulnerable to the serpent? How could the serpent weaken the soul which was under the 'protection' of the spirit (Adam)? This does not sound good or even possible unless God made man 'perfectly imperfect' or intentionally weak for good reasons of His own. Did God make man with the intention of man not sinning?

Your response
The creation is never better or greater than the creator. I think this is again steering us away from the overall purpose of man. For Jesus to become our "redeemer" there had to be something there to redeem . . .this isn't about "us" it's about "Christ". keep in mind, yes, God does love and cherish every one of us, but we're merely vessels. We were created "for" Christ, not the other way around. Jesus didn't come to die for us as much as he came to resurrect us. But for him to resurrect us, he had to die . . .and for us to "be" resurrected . . .we had to be dead. So what happened in the garden was inevidible.


Nathan, Brother, I love you dearly and appreciate you much, but I pray that you will consider and re-consider before the Lord, Gen.1 and 2. It is no surprise to me, that this question has come up in conversation with you.

I truly believe that The Lord wants to reveal this to you, but as you know very well, we must let go of some things in order to obtain something New.

In all humility and with much Love in Christ
Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Loved reading every bit of what all are saying.

If all that existed was "good" how can we understand the "goodness" of good if it's opposite did not exist.

We cannot understand or appreciate that which is good unless we were removed from it, in other words, we cannot understand or even begin to comprehend what love is, let alone appreciate it unless we were first removed from Love; from God Himself.

A small note to Scherryl, as I was reading Gen 1 & 2 again, I knew I was very close, but something still eluded me and I think I have to have something else revealed to me first before I can comprehend the revelation you speak of.

I continue to seek in spirit

Rick



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

cross-eyed

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Relationship for me is much like school . . .there are many different grades, topics, levels, classes, tests, and diplomas. In my Father's house are MANY ROOMS . . .many dimensions, many levels of understanding because every person has their own individual relationship. That's one of the things I think the church has also perverted that frustrated me A LOT when I was in the church. They "SAY" it's of utmost importance that one would have a personal relationship with the Father and they immediately follow that up by laying out their expectations of what they think that relationship is or should be.

I've heard it preached many times that we should, as mature beleivers, spend time and pay attention to the young believers and maybe some of their excitement may rub off and reignite our lathargic relationship due to the repetition of our daily lives . . .problem was with that was, it wouldn't be long before the mature would coach the immature and the more they "churched" them, the less the newborns would be so excited about the things of God.

But it wasn't until I came into the kingdom understanding of things that the Scripture verse . . .and the song that we sang quoting it . . . took on a whole new meaninging. "In Him we live, and move and have our being . . ." Three dimensions of relationship all over again.

But it's the "have OUR being" is what jumps out at me the most. It allowed me to not be concerned about making sure everyone believed what I believed. It's awesome when we have people be on the same page when we share where we are, they see what we share because their maturity level of relationship with the Father was ready to go to that next level, or they were enabled to embrace what we see . . .but . . .when we're dealing with the depths, the infinite depths of the nature of the Father, understanding everything everyone else sees isn't as common as we may expect.

My twin boys are almost 8 years old. They attend a public school but it has a unique program where they take students that excel in certain subjects and they actually separate them from the majority of the grade and they put them in a completely different class environment where they let the kids go to the actual learning level where they are at, rather than have them eventually lose interest in boredom by leaving them in the general grade level.

Both our boys were selected to be a part of this different cultural teaching style and they both accelerate in different things. One is just awesome in reading, the other is an over achiever at math . . .they have older students teaching or helping with younger ones and they will intermingle together throughout the week. It's quite a new concept. But it's starting to get a lot of attention from the results.

In our logic, we would think it unnecessary for someone in highschool to expect someone in elementary to know what the one in highschool knows. Or a college student to expect a middle school student to understand the level of knowledge that the college student is at.

When dealing with these kingdom principles . . .the more I become aware of, the more I realize, there's more to see than what's been seen. I'm but an elementary student in a world of spiritual maturity around me. When things were shared on Genesis one and two, it was immediately clear to me that my own level of relationship was not at the same place . . .not that I disagreed, it just went outside my line of sight. So when people inquire of me to share my views, I can only share my own level of understanding on it, knowing that understanding is never an absolute, it's always morphing into bigger and better things . . .but the things I explained are merely the level of where I'm at . . .

In the middle of my pastoring venture, it occurred to me that even though many churches out there seem to be extremely limited in their level of understanding, they are still necessary because there will ALWAYS be babies that need tending to . .there will ALWAYS be kids that need to be babysat. There will ALWAYS be teenagers that need to be monitered . . .It's just as we've said about the dimensions of the tabernacle .. .you can't just jump behind the veil, it's a process of maturity that leads you from the outer court, to the inner court, to the holy of holies.

the frustration in the churches come when they won't allow their people to graduate to the next level. That's what the book was about . . .the fact that instead of enabling the people to move deeper, they take them to their level and put up walls, fences and boundary lines and tell them "that's" what having a personal relationship is. Their religious idol worshiping has brought the relationship of the people into a bondage and God is sending people to the different levels of teaching with one message . . the message of Moses . . ."Let my people go . . ."

My explanation of Genesis is the only one I see and understand. . . .today. Tomorrow a switch may click and I may be able to see it on the level seen by others. But until then, no condemnation . . . but this is the grade level I'm currently at. I too am more than willing to accept what others share . . .it's all in faith anyway . . .so there's a good chance I will see what others are seeing . . .just happens to not be at this particular moment is all.

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Very well said Nathan, and I see humbleness in your words and I also see a little disappointment, disappointment in that others do not understand where you are in that particular level of understanding, because I see that you are at a higher level of understanding when it comes "to" the levels of understanding. I agree with you on all points, and it is something that I have to work on remembering, that we are all at different levels or in different rooms.

I will admit, patience is not one of my strong points when it comes to the excitement of revelation. I want to share it so badly and have someone else to understand what I understand and I become disappointed that another may not and I tend to be my own worst enemy in killing the joy I received from it.

Bask in the joy of the glory of revelation, for it too fades with time, but it is engraved in us to be renewed again.



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

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I am very humbled by your reply Nathan, by the time I got done reading I was crying my eyes out.

And I wondered why? Is it because what you say is true? Yes, is it because your words are so filled with Grace? Yes, they are.

Is it because I want you to see it so badly and am brokenhearted because you don't, at this time? Yes, that too.

But I truly do understand what your saying and I know this very well. It's just ..... Your Nathan!!!.... You have so much understanding and a heart as big as all out doors, and I think to myself why doesn't he see this? But that is my problem not yours.

And Jugghead, I agree with you too. Sad

Blessings to you both




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cross-eyed

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Perhaps if anything, its a reminder just how much of these pearls are truly "revelation" from the Father and not something "learned" through natural reasoning. Something to be cherished for sure.

8 Church all day long on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:56 pm

Hibbs


I am hesitant to add anything but agree with Scherryl that the understanding of the foundation of Genesis is critical to going forward in God. If we fail to realize that the Adam (singular, formed of the dirt, no dominion, restricted from the tree of life) was planted as a living (not the life of the spirit but rather animal breath) soul (not "created" in the "image" of God) in a garden (as a corruptible seed rather than incorruptible...look at 2 Cor 15); then we try to build on the wrong foundation. Unless we understand that the formed Adam was placed in a garden to die and his life become the dung (fertilizer) for the incorruptible seed (singular seed of Abraham, meaning Christ) then we struggle with the guilt of sin and struggle even more with trying to get ourselves clean enough or holy enough or righteous enough or faithful enough or healthy enough (walking upright with clear vision and speech) and find that we go round and round the mountain, always learning but never coming to the knowledge.

The Adam of Genesis 1 contains all of the x chromosomes that the y of our soul did not have when formed of the dust of the earth...at least not in Eve when removed from Adam. The "rib" that was taken was actually a rhibosome of his DNA and needed the other half to be completed...the same process that takes place in the womb when the sperm and the egg meet. All of the instruction for every organ of the body is placed in that single cell of life. In Adam all die...their telomeres have an instruction that falls short of life...it is for that reason that the virgin birth is so important. Jesus was not born of the seed that was in the loins of "formed of the dirt" Adam.

When that light goes off inside, and I am praying that it does, then all guilt and condemnation disappears. God purposed from the beginning that the plural Adam ("them, male and female, with dominion, and given every tree to eat") would ultimately become one with the garden that we are. The incorruptible seed is sown into us and a new creature (or creation) is formed. Genesis 1 (through the 7th day of Gen 2:3-5) is actually a picture of the "end from the beginning" and the manchild company of revelations is the last "Adam" that was visualized. The word "Adam" was used for both because it is the plan and purpose of God that the middle wall of partition be destroyed and that the two should be one. He divided the dirt form as the initiation of the process that was introduced in the overview (Scherryl's "blueprint" or "schematidzo") in the beginning. That is why Christ was there "in the beginning" for the "Adam" of Genesis 1 was an "image" or "shadow" of Christ.

Hope that this helps. It has helped me a lot and is making more and more sense the longer I chew on the ramifications of the garden and Jesus being placed in the garden tomb to appear as the gardener. Where else would we be sown except into the darkness of the earth until the day that we spring forth in newness of life. Why else would the worm decompose in the cocoon before coming forth in the new life of the butterfly? James 1:23 talks of a "hearer that is not a doer" and says that he is a "beholder of his "natural" face." The word for "natural" is "genesis". Being formed terrestrial, we receive the Word that changes us "in the atomos" into celestial. We were earthly by design so that we can now bear the image of the heavenly. It is not in natural Adam to ever demonstrate God or to have dominion....and yet, the "last Adam" is the Christ of which we are in the process of becoming. As long as we look into our natural (genesis) face rather than seeing Him "face to face" then our carnal soulish nature is trying to "be like God" rather than being the y to His x and forming the "ladder" that is the DNA of our "holy of holies" or nucleolus of the nucleus of the temple of God.

A.R.T.I.C

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Boy Mark, when you get something you really get it don't you?
Thank you Lord.

I know I've said this before but, to see someones words written before me, of what I have come to see for so long (alone), gives me such a joy that is just unspeakable, I am rejoicing in every word.

And I know by now, seeing the End from the Beginning, you have also come to experience a Rest like never before. That's what it does.
Knowing how it all is going to End, truly End, written not with pen and ink but by the Spirit of The Lord, (like a Watermark, when held up under the Light)is an amazing Anchor, in times of trial and tribulations.

It is, The Solid Foundation of All scripture, of All Truth, and mostly of All, Of God's Goodness for us Through His Son, and this was purposed before it ever began.

As in Adam all die, Gen.1:2 (purposed, from the beginning),
Even so, in Christ shall all be made alive (quickened), (also purposed from the beginning).Gen.1:26-

It's more than a wishful hoping that All will be saved, it's a knowing.

Blessings




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10 Church all day long on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:53 pm

Hibbs


Thank you Scherryl too...

The Pattern of the tabernacle was a significant revelation that opened things like the process of the building of the temple (which we are)and the timing and the purpose of the feasts and the place of the wilderness. It produced a quantum leap in my understanding of the word.

That revelation does not compare with the understanding that comes when you dig the right foundation and build on Christ rather than Adam. When you realize that we have been trying to build on sand (the man of dirt) and not on the rock, then you can appreciate the futility of religion and why the world is in such a mess. Better yet, you can understand what God had purposed from the beginning and how the seed will not be denied. As the lies are exposed and the fig leaves of tradition removed, we will ultimately see Him with whom we have to deal....face to face....in all of His glory. When we see Him as he is, we will be like Him because we will become one with Him...the bride of our husband...the husbandman who has been tending the garden all along with the expectation of a full harvest in due season.

cross-eyed

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All right . . .you're using way too many words . . .I'm not sure if it's the alignment of them or the number of them but either way, I'm just not grasping what it is you're so concerned about because I keep getting lost in the explanations.

So . . .simply put . . . are you saying Genesis one is the depiction of the Last Adam and Genesis two is the depiction of the first?

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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cross-eyed wrote:All right . . .you're using way too many words . . .I'm not sure if it's the alignment of them or the number of them but either way, I'm just not grasping what it is you're so concerned about because I keep getting lost in the explanations.

So . . .simply put . . . are you saying Genesis one is the depiction of the Last Adam and Genesis two is the depiction of the first?

As do I Nathan, getting lost in the explanation. And yes, that is what I think they are trying to say. I can see the concept, but having the roots and the plant of the concept grow out of it is where I lose it.



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Yes, Gen.1:26--is The Last Adam, The one who has been given Dominion over all things.

The Adam in the Garden was the first.

But.... The whole Garden scenario, took place within the first day of Gen. ch. 1, as did we All.

We all have our being within the first Adam, and in The Last Adam in Gen.1 through ch. 2:4 As did Abraham, Issac, Moses, David, etc.etc......All....


Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Blessings




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cross-eyed

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And I'm absoultely fine with all of that. But why would you say unless one sees that, one cannot grow into the depths of the kingdom?

That's question one . . .question two would be . . .how is what I've been sharing a contradiction to what you're saying here?

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Scherryl wrote:Yes, Gen.1:26--is The Last Adam, The one who has been given Dominion over all things.

The Adam in the Garden was the first.

But.... The whole Garden scenario, took place within the first day of Gen. ch. 1, as did we All.

We all have our being within the first Adam, and in The Last Adam in Gen.1 through ch. 2:4 As did Abraham, Issac, Moses, David, etc.etc......All....


Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Blessings

What I just got from what you say is that in day one, the separation of light from darkness was when Adam ate from the tree, thus separating the last Adam (Christ) from the first Adam (Adam). Correct????



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That's not exactly the way I see it.

There was no Light (Truth) till God spoke it.
And when He did it automatically it causes division.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, (The Law) is what revealed to Adam , the Light (Truth) of who he was, he was naked before God, he needed The clothing of Righteousness, which can only be found in the Christ, The Son of God.

Adam, speaks of All of us, not just one man.

For I was once alive without the law, but when the law came sin revived and I died, (So did Adam).




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I also wanted to say that, the Moon, the Sun, and the stars, are all sources of Light, (Truth), with each one there is also a progressive, growth, and a pattern of the plan of God.

The Moon- Knowledge of The Law,
The Sun- Grace and Truth through Jesus Christ,
The Stars- The Revelation of Christ in both.




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cross-eyed wrote:And I'm absoultely fine with all of that. But why would you say unless one sees that, one cannot grow into the depths of the kingdom?

That's question one . . .question two would be . . .how is what I've been sharing a contradiction to what you're saying here?

Hi Nathan,

I'm sorry I totally overlooked this post, until this morning.

There is always growth in us, but the foundation of that Growth is extremely important.

I know this must come to you as Revelation, it can't be taught all I can do is plant.

When you do receive this, it will show you where you may have missed it here and there. The things you have come to know will be illuminated even more.

The one thing I can see that contradicts what I have seen, is The first Adam having dominion, and then falling from that place, that just can't be. Adam in the Garden speaks of us all in our beginning. This portion of scripture to me explains it better than any others, or better than I could, and should not be overlooked.

1Co 15:40 There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial,
1Co 15:41 another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory."

1Co 15:42 Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."


1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

1Co 15:47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."

1Co 15:48 Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."


Another thing too Nathan, is, that I don't believe there was ever a union of spirit and soul in Adam. Just because we have a spirit and soul does not mean that, that is the union that must take place within us. Adam's life, was a puff, or breath (neshamah) animal life. And dominion can't take place without the Holy Spirit of God coming into Union with our Soul. Male and Female together, has dominion.

Eve is a manifestation of what was in Adam, his nature, to me that's all that she depicts, The Soilishness of us all, before the Male/Spirit of Christ comes in and the marriage feast of The Lamb takes place within us.

See, I was under the impression that you understood this, by the fact that the Women were to keep silent in the church.
That's why I was so excited when I first read that on TM.

I hope this helps, and not confuses the issue.

Blessings





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I hesitate to just blindly embrace all of what's been implied here, not because I want my head to understand it but there's not that merging or meshing taking place with it so like I often implore others to do, I'm not rejecting anything, but this thinking is something on the backburner for me until it takes root on it's own.

For clarity, you say that Genesis one is . . . what? It's "about" Christ? It "is" Christ? And the second chapter, because it says "these are the generations" then it means it's about Adam?

yet as I read Genesis one, it's mostly about the process of preparation for the creation of man on the 6th day. It talks about waters above and waters below . . . stars, sun and moon, birds and fish . . .then it states in verse 26

26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[b] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

This is where it gets fuzzy for me . . .Christ was already there when these things were taking place and yet you're saying . . . and I lose the connection because I'm not really sure what it is you're saying, other that it's so important that one's relationship with the Father is directly connected to the ability to see this . . .which I struggle with as well.

Any kind of claims of restriction to one's ability to have a bottomless relationship with the Father always brings me to pause. When Peter had his first revelation with the Father to the unveiling of who Jesus was, did Peter understand that Genesis 2 came before Genesis one?

In my shoes, you're telling me that until I see "this" I can't go any further in God . . .that only adds to the struggle . . the only thing that I've seen in Scripture that this kind of thinking would be applied would be when Jesus was talking about the 4 soils and the disciples didn't understand what he was talking about. His response was that the four soils metaphor was an elementary correlation and if they didn't get that piece, how were they going to be able to get anything else he was saying to them.

I do see there are "basic" principles that enable us to see how everything else is put together . . .and the principles are interactive with everything else. Like our understanding of numbers . . .the number 5 in revelation has the same meaning as the number 5 in Genesis.

This thing here with Genesis one and two seems to fit only with Genesis one and two. Maybe that's why I'm struggling with it as well. That and I don't see this principle as an elementary one . . . is there a pattern in the tabernacle of Moses that this aligns with?

I think I'm going to go back to other threads on this subject and reread them . . .see if there's anything there now that might make a difference for me.

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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As I read and reread what both you guys say (Scherryl and Mark) I come to the understanding that Genesis 1, the six days of creation is the process in which the Adam of the dust is brought into.

When Scherryl emphasized "generations", I saw that each day of creation is a stage of development in us with the end result being the image of God that is spoke about in 1:26.

And when Mark emphasized the X and Y, and the fact that we are being made into a garden, that once the garden is planted in us and begins to grow, that is when Christ is placed into us as the tiller of the ground to cause more growth.

Is this what you guys are trying to emphasize in the differences between 1 & 2?



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Yes, Yes,!!!! Jugghead, You said it right.

In fact, you put it perfectly clear, when you said this.

Quote,
When Scherryl emphasized "generations", I saw that each day of creation is a stage of development in us with the end result being the image of God that is spoke about in 1:26.
End Quote.

That is it!!!!Praise the Lord Rick.




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Hibbs


Even better...change the chapter close to Gen 2:3-5 and the first chapter concludes with the 7 days of creation in introduction and overview with the conclusion that it is "very good." Genesis 2:6 begins the process of the formation of the creation shown in chapter 1 (through 2:5). The plural "Adam" "created" in chapter 1 now starts the process of formation by being a corruptible seed placed in a garden which will in turn receive the incorruptible seed which we know is Christ. It is this seed that carries dominion.

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Hibbs wrote:Even better...change the chapter close to Gen 2:3-5 and the first chapter concludes with the 7 days of creation in introduction and overview with the conclusion that it is "very good." Genesis 2:6 begins the process of the formation of the creation shown in chapter 1 (through 2:5). The plural "Adam" "created" in chapter 1 now starts the process of formation by being a corruptible seed placed in a garden which will in turn receive the incorruptible seed which we know is Christ. It is this seed that carries dominion.

When it comes to the dominion aspect of it, in the dust Adam (the beginning in us), the flesh has dominion over what is inside of us, mind, heart and spirit whereas when the Spirit of Christ is placed in us, He has dominion over us and in turn our mind, heart and spirit now has the power to have dominion over the flesh.



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Yes, Yes, Yes, Mark....Beautifully Put.

Quote:
Genesis 2:6 begins the process of the formation of the creation shown in chapter 1 (through 2:5). The plural "Adam" "created" in chapter 1 now starts the process of formation by being a corruptible seed placed in a garden which will in turn receive the incorruptible seed which we know is Christ. End Quote:

And Yes, to you too Jugghead, Praise God!!! I am so rejoicing today.

Blessings




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klm4jc


Hibbs wrote: Better yet, you can understand what God had purposed from the beginning and how the seed will not be denied. As the lies are exposed and the fig leaves of tradition removed, we will ultimately see Him with whom we have to deal....face to face....in all of His glory. When we see Him as he is, we will be like Him because we will become one with Him...the bride of our husband...the husbandman who has been tending the garden all along with the expectation of a full harvest in due season.

I love this. To me, it explains what revelation's talks about when the adversary is bound for a thousand years as we enter the 7th day. I know many people who want to say that we have entered the beginning of that day. I believe this based on the evidence of the hidden things that are being revealed. However, when we look around and still see deception, pain, sorrow and death, in what way is satan bound then? He still seems to be pretty active if you know what I mean.

I think perhaps that what satan is bound from is indeed the 'seed not being denied'. It really is being revealed and there is nothing that can be done to prevent this from happening. God's ultimate purpose, transforming us into His image, will be accomplished.

I see Gen 1 as a macro view of God's complete plan. He says what He is going to do (Gen 1), then He sets out to do it (the rest of the story). If we view Gen 1 as just the start instead of complete in itself, then it leads me to the idea that man was created perfect, for some reason he fell and God is now working to fix it. In which case Christ would never have been needed, He was there just in case. When viewed as a process by which man is made in God's image, Christ is thus given preeminence. I would go as far to say without it being this way, we limit it being about Christ . It's all about what God did to make us in His image.

If I were in His image already, the purpose of our journey doesn't make sense. He would have already accomplished that which He set out to do in the beginning without it being about Christ. Perhaps we were in relationship with Him in some way because we came from Him, but we were not like Him in the way that He desired us to be.

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