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In John's Defense

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1 In John's Defense on Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:56 pm

A.R.T.I.C

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Hi Everyone,

I know that we have all heard of teachings and sermons that something inside just screams "There must be another answer" than what I'm hearing. Such as the Eternal Torment doctrine, and The Rapture, etc. And I believe that it is times like these that The Spirit is driving us to seek further The Truth of the matter.

I've had one as such that had presented it's self this way to me a long time ago, and it was, that When John The Baptist was cast into prison, and sent two of His disciples to Jesus, to ask if He was the one, or should we look for another. The normal teaching and assumption is that John had gotten into a place of fear, doubt and unbelief, because of his situation.

I ask all of you what do you believe concerning this, or have you every thought about it, or has The Spirit revealed to you the Truth of what was really going on? If not I think you will be pleasantly surprise. Wink

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
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2 Re: In John's Defense on Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:44 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Good question Scherryl,

Here is what I have come to understand:

First, it was by what John heard is why he sent his disciples to Jesus to ask
Second, what he heard was the works of Christ

So understanding what John's purpose was, that of being the one baptizing into repentance (thinking differently), I believe John was "confused" because he was baptizing for the purpose of rethinking "works" and I believe that is where his confusion was.

I don't think he understood the concept of the rethinking of works, that "works" was no longer out of obedience to the law in order to avoid punishment, "works" are out of love in order to bring hope and life to those who were being neglected by their own understanding of the law.


My thoughts on the subject
Rick



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

3 Re: In John's Defense on Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:16 am

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I don't know Jugghead, I still find it hard to believe that John was in confusion of any sort, after all this man was filled with the Holy Spirit from the Womb. Not only that but, he was the one who said such things as, "Behold The Lamb of God", "He must increase and I must Decrease", he even knew that he was the one spoken of in Issiah "The one crying in The wilderness", he also knew he was "not" The Christ, but one who bore Witness of Him. And why would he not send to speak to Jesus, or better yet, why would he not talk to God, after all he had talked to Him all his life.

I think John declares very clearly that his purpose was to prepare the way for The Lord. And to baptize with water only.

John also saw the Heavens open, The Dove Rest upon Him, and heard the Voice, declaring That, "this was God's Son in whom He was well Pleased".

Again in John's defense, I believe that there is another explanation as to why he sent "his disciples".

If no one else responds today, I'll go ahead and share what The Lord revealed to me about this "Very Hidden", reason why John and Jesus responded in the manner they did.

The answer is actually revealed in a question, as with most things. "Why did John still have disciples?"

Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

4 Re: In John's Defense on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:33 pm

cross-eyed

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I started reading this earlier today, then didn't have time to finish it, but forgot about it all together.

I "do" have my own experience with this particular passage, It'll be interesting to see what dimension this will fit in with yours. Very Happy For me, the thing that happened to John in that prison cell is merely reflective of the spiritual DNA that was in his heart. For me, the answer to "why" lies in this passage here.

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


It's funny you mentioned the same logical questions about how could John "not" know who Jesus was at that point and time in his life. All of the logic is right there in plain black and white. But . . . he wasn't John being John, he was John being Elijah in ministry. The Elijah anointing wasn't something that could just "come on" him whenever he wanted to make a declaration or drew a large crowd. There were other aspects to Elijah and his ministry that carried over into John as well.

Remember Elijah at his peak had just exercised a HUGE manifestation of God's presence in basically a bet against Jezebel's false prophets. Remember that? They killed two oxen or bulls, I don't remember which right now, but one was for the false prophets and the other was for Elijah, yes?

You all know the story, so I won't take up the space here. Other than to say this, at the very end, right after he ordered all of the false prophets to be killed, Jezebel put out a warrant for his life. She ordered a bounty on his head.

And how did he respond? Seriously, this guy just called fire from heaven . . .and it showed up! you'd think that this silly woman from the south wouldn't be any more of a problem with him that a gnat. But that's not what he responded to. In spite of all that just happened, he turned tail and ran for his life. He went as far as he possibly could go without actually leaving Israel and there, at the boundary line, that's where he gave it all up . . . he just laid down and waited to die.

In the same way, I beleive John the baptist, in the isolation of a hole in the ground with no evidence that it was going to get any better . . .I think ole John went the way of Elijah just a bit. I think he lost his confidence, regardless of all that he saw in his preveious experiences with Jesus, doubt was trying to set in. And in the same way that God sent angels (messengers) to wake up Elijah and give him strength, these disciples of John were also messengers doing the same thing.

To him who much is given . . .this Elijah anointing John had on his life didn't come cheap. And it messed with his head at times, but he endured to the end regardless of the death around him, he gave up his head because truth had already set him free.

5 Re: In John's Defense on Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:26 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Scherryl wrote:I don't know Jugghead, I still find it hard to believe that John was in confusion of any sort, after all this man was filled with the Holy Spirit from the Womb. Not only that but, he was the one who said such things as, "Behold The Lamb of God", "He must increase and I must Decrease", he even knew that he was the one spoken of in Issiah "The one crying in The wilderness", he also knew he was "not" The Christ, but one who bore Witness of Him. And why would he not send to speak to Jesus, or better yet, why would he not talk to God, after all he had talked to Him all his life.

I think John declares very clearly that his purpose was to prepare the way for The Lord. And to baptize with water only.

John also saw the Heavens open, The Dove Rest upon Him, and heard the Voice, declaring That, "this was God's Son in whom He was well Pleased".

Again in John's defense, I believe that there is another explanation as to why he sent "his disciples".

If no one else responds today, I'll go ahead and share what The Lord revealed to me about this "Very Hidden", reason why John and Jesus responded in the manner they did.

The answer is actually revealed in a question, as with most things. "Why did John still have disciples?"

Blessings


In my defense, I did say they were "my" thoughts Very Happy and as Nathan would put it "my" natural reasoning, which with what I said, I do agree Embarassed



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

6 John's Defense on Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:43 am

Hibbs


John was the most righteous born of woman...but even the least in the kingdom is greater than John. Moses as a type of the law could not enter in to the promised land...but not because he lost heart and became angry. As a type of the law, all he could do was strike the rock a second time.

Similarly, John was a type of the prophets...Elijah as Nathan has pointed out, and the law and the prophets might show the way but only Christ can take us in. Jesus said that he had no place to lay his head. John was beheaded because he was the transition man. Elijah could not produce the double portion of the Elisha ministry any more than John's ministry could establish tabernacles and the entrance to the promised land. The body that has been prepared is a body with a new head..our Joshua, or Yeshua if you prefer. We too must join with those under the altar who have lost their heads for the testimony of Christ if we are to enter in.

I am still listening to try and hear Scherryl's understanding, however. I am not of the opinion that John feared anything...or even that his question was a sign of failure or weakness on his part.

7 Re: In John's Defense on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:25 am

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Yes Mark. That was my thought. And he wore animal skins. Which puts him in the Esau Edom Adam role. The letter. The earth man. The stone law. Can't wear wool in the temple. He was the very peak of Adam the greatest born of women.

8 Re: In John's Defense on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:55 am

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Ok, first of all, your all right as far as the Law, and the double portion of Elisha, absolutely.

But as far as John's fear or doubt, The Spirit revealed to me that he has gotten a bad rap. John knew his purpose, and there is no doubt in my mind that he also knew he was about to depart this realm.

Both John and Jesus worked together through The Spirit on behalf of John's disciples, it was for them. John did not want them to be left as orphan's after his demise. That was the purpose of sending them, not to convince or assure John, but them.

A close look at the details in every Gospel, will show, that #1 they were still called "John's disciples, and #2 they seem to appear with the Pharisees and the scribes. mark 2

John knowing this, and already telling them that they should be following Him, still were not. When they seen the miracles first hand and I'm sure that the scriptures in Isaiah were confirmed in them, it gave greater witness as to who Jesus was.

When Jesus tells the two disciples, to go tell John, out of their own mouth, it would have been a great witness that this indeed was The Messiah, that they looked for.

Again, it's not about John, but his disciples, they are a picture of those that are hanging on to the Law, and if God forbid their pastor or church falls apart, so do some of the congregation.

Is it any wonder why Jesus said right after they came and saw, that, "The Law and The prophets prophesied UNTIL John".

Oh, and by the way this was not a one time event, this happened at least two or three times, different circumstances, and different locations.


Blessings




The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail...Because The Love of God...Will....Never....Fail!
http://aplace2rest.forumotion.com

9 John's Defense on Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:34 am

Hibbs


Scherryl mentioned the scribes that John's disciples were with. I noticed something yesterday about the scribes in the verses below:

Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy "mind", and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the "understanding", and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

The first thing that came to mind is that there are four aspects to this command. In them I saw the four faces of God; the man, the lion, the eagle and the ox. And the scribe agrees with the Lord (12:30 and 31 are red letter) and repeats what he heard. The only difference is that Jesus used the word "dianoia" and the scribe used the word "sunesis". While they seem the same to the natural mind, it is apparent that Jesus was talking about the imagination of the spirit and the scribe was talking the understanding that is natural.

John would be concerned...he was the one that taught his disciples to pray... and I see the point now that Scherryl was making. Most of the exercises that we think are for others...and that the spirit leads us into...are really meant more to establish something in us than in others. John would be concerned about deflecting the loyalty of those that he loved (or birthed to use Paul's vernacular) from himself to Jesus so that they would not go shipwreck. I never gave the verse much attention but it didn't set right that John would not know his cousin after all of the years that they went through...from leaping in the womb to the baptism in the Jordan.

Paul knew when he finished his course and I agree with Scherryl that John would have understood that as well. He probably understood the way that he would lose his life as well...just a thought.

10 Re: In John's Defense on Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:14 pm

J.U.G.G.H.E.A.D.

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Scherryl wrote:Ok, first of all, your all right as far as the Law, and the double portion of Elisha, absolutely.

But as far as John's fear or doubt, The Spirit revealed to me that he has gotten a bad rap. John knew his purpose, and there is no doubt in my mind that he also knew he was about to depart this realm.

Both John and Jesus worked together through The Spirit on behalf of John's disciples, it was for them. John did not want them to be left as orphan's after his demise. That was the purpose of sending them, not to convince or assure John, but them.

A close look at the details in every Gospel, will show, that #1 they were still called "John's disciples, and #2 they seem to appear with the Pharisees and the scribes. mark 2

John knowing this, and already telling them that they should be following Him, still were not. When they seen the miracles first hand and I'm sure that the scriptures in Isaiah were confirmed in them, it gave greater witness as to who Jesus was.

When Jesus tells the two disciples, to go tell John, out of their own mouth, it would have been a great witness that this indeed was The Messiah, that they looked for.

Again, it's not about John, but his disciples, they are a picture of those that are hanging on to the Law, and if God forbid their pastor or church falls apart, so do some of the congregation.

Is it any wonder why Jesus said right after they came and saw, that, "The Law and The prophets prophesied UNTIL John".

Oh, and by the way this was not a one time event, this happened at least two or three times, different circumstances, and different locations.


Blessings

That is what I came to understand after you stated the question "Why did John still have disciples? It was for them, his disciples, they were now to follow Jesus, not John



Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

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