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1 Gen 1 & 2 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:35 pm

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I know that this can be upsetting and uprooting also to some.
But there are very notable differences between the two chapters. But, I believe that it is equally important for us to know our beginning as it is for us to know our End. Amen?
And we are all here to know ONE Thing, And ONE God, who is Truth.

Even though I have said this from the e-mail loop, and everywhere this topic has been mentioned, Very Happy I will try to go further into depth of what I've been shown.

The first thing that was shown to me, is here in 1:1, in fact Jeremy's interpretation of it, is very close.

KJV
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

CLV
Gen 1:1 Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.

Notice it is the Elohim, and Heavens Plural in Both.

I see, gods in the ordinary sense, (to whom the word of the Lord came to) Heavens more than one. These heavens and this earth is what man's interpretation of them are, and thereby were created by the carnal minds of men, and Religion, without Understanding from the Holy Spirit. For this reason, is why we see in the very next verse, "Darkness" this word is so important for us to understand it is "EVERYTHING" that the first Adam brought into this world.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

CLV
Gen 1:2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.

Notice it was Darkness before the Light. And not only that, but the time we get to Vs. 26&27 that speaks of Dominion, I have to stop and ask, "if there is Dominion being given, then there has to be something to have Dominion over," right?

I mean, what would be the point of having dominion, if there was nothing we had to rule over. Which brings us right back to the Darkness in vs. 2 Adam's disobedience.

The whole Garden scenario happened within the first Day of Gen.1..... 1 Day, = 1,000 yrs.....1,000 yrs. The Reign of Christ, From the Holy of Holies....10x10x10 It is the Life Span of Adam.

To be continued........





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2 The Darkness on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:25 pm

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The word Darkness as it is in Gen.1:2

kho-shek'
From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.

And it's from this number
khaw-shak'
A primitive root; to be dark (as withholding light); transitively to darken: - be black, be (make) dark, darken, cause darkness, be dim, hide.

Now I ask you, is this not a perfect picture of our beginning?

See, Adam in the Garden is much more than one man, it is all of us. I also believe that those trees that he was to freely eat of are those of us who have made it back into that Garden, trees of Righteousness the planting of The Lord. We have made it past the Cheribum with the double edged Sword. How? by overcoming the imaginations of the first Adam, the traditions of men and Religion, and the doctrines of Devils. This is having Dominion in Christ, this is the Union of our spirit/male and our Soul/female in agreement with The One who has Dominion over all things. And this is also The first Heaven and the first earth passing away, to make room for the Reality of them. The Heavens didn't change, and the earth didn't change, we did. Our perception of them did, all because of Christ. Wink

Differences to note between the first chapter and the second.

Ch.1 male and female
Ch.2 man and woman

Ch.1 earth
Ch.2 Ground, field

Ch.1 Created
Ch.2 formed and made

Ch.1 mankind (plural)
Ch.2 man (singular)

Ch.1 All mankind
Ch.2 No man

Ch.1 All is finished
Ch.2 Before it was in the earth, and Before it Grew.

Other notable things in Ch.2
No Rain, just a mist, and that from the Ground, not from the heavens, not from Above, but from beneath.

Adam was found Alone, before Eve was taken out of him.
Therefore the separation was within him first.

Adam is seen giving names (natures) to all the animals.
Gen.1 the Man is seen having Dominion over all of them.

Adam was Naked, same word as the serpent in the Hebrew.
And the serpent was the most subtle beast of the field.
Meaning Crafty, cunning.

Adam is the first Accuser.

Adam did not have Dominion over the whole earth, he was confined to a portion of the Garden, and that was Eastward in Eden, which is not good. His limitations is also defined by thou shalt not. This man in the Garden is still in the earth today, and still eating from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil, he has yet to become ONE, therefore he stills sees everything as such, good and evil, and will continue to judge according to that Law, and condemn.

And yet we are here, waiting for those to freely eat from us, who are ready and willing to freely give to them. But Until The Lord removes the, "thou shalt not" from their eyes, they will continue to choose that tree, instead of us, the trees who are Planted firmly in that Garden by the Lord.















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3 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:18 am

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I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I've been leaning this way for a while. I just don't know if all the parts are pieced together exactly right yet. I think a lot of the difference comes from multiple layers, wheels within wheels. Its very murky waters. But I am in agreement with quite a bit of what you're saying. I'm going to meditate on this and try and add to the discussion later. Unfortunately I'll be remodeling my office this weekend so I doubt it will be before Monday. And the rate these posts have been moving lately we'll be on 8 topics later Sad

I'll just leave with this, you mentioned the cherubim, and that is where the wheels within wheels comes from. The cherubim throne. There are so many layers to the cherubim which are a hieroglyph for the entire story.

The covering cherub in the garden
The cherubs stationed at the gate
The ark
the veil
the zodiac was carved into the floor of the inner court according to Josephus, and the 4 poles of N, S, E, W are the heads of the cherubim.
The camp of Israel was set up in the stations of the cherubim
The actual constellations in space in the second heaven
The actual forms of the constellations in the third heaven (seen in Rev the Heavens opened aka the Holy of Holies and the woman clothed with the sun, is Virgo with the sun in her belly, but the scene in heaven is not of the second heavens although that may be manifested, I think the scene is in the Holy of Holies the third heaven)
The 4 beasts around the throne.

There are 2 trees in the garden for eve to choose from. The tree of Life or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I believe that Adam is the TOKOGAE, which is the graven image the ark. Adam is the natural, the things "out there". That the serpent is hanging off the tree, representing the reptilian brain.

http://jacobisrael.com/2010/01/02/garden-of-eden-revealed/

I haven't read the above in quite a while but the reptilian brain part is quite interesting, and the part of the nervous system. There is a river of life called CSF that flows around the spinal cord, it comes from inside the brain. It flows down to the Sacrum, which means sacred. Its a triangle shaped bone (that used to be 5 but develops into one), that is called such because it is seen as the key to birth canal.

Darnnit there I go, going all sidetracked again.

Have a blessed day friends



Last edited by Jeremy1 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total

4 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:05 am

Hibbs


Scherryl; You have really started something (or Todd did) that is sort of the tip of the iceberg of something much greater. As I look at the "creation" of "Adam (them)" in Gen 1, I note that it was on the 6th day and that this Adam was given dominion (although it is an earthly dominion only). When I look at Gen 2, I note that it is the beginning of the 7th day and that "Adam" is "formed" from the dust of the earth. From Todd's post there is apparently a difference in that the Gen 2 Adam is singular and the Gen 1 Adam is plural (and thus the reference to "them"). I do not have an interlinear and do not have the precise Hebrew.

There are some other differences too...like the 2:7 Adam receiving the breath of life (not the ruach of the spirit but rather animal or soulish wind) and becoming a living soul. We do not see that with the plural Adam "created" at 1:27 as male and female created He them. "They" received the dominion mandate and it does not appear to have been limited.

Then we have the Gen 2 Adam placed in a garden in 2:7&8 and we find that God causes trees to grow out of the "adamah" (ground). We do not see a dominion given to the Adam formed of the dust and it is this Adam that later is put to sleep and Eve is taken from his side and we know the rest of the story. Is it really possible that we have been trying to put this Humpty together with thoughts that restoring Eve back into his side will complete him (in allegorical analogy) and restore him from whence he was fallen without realizing that the "living soul" Adam was merely a seed out of which mankind would come and not the seed of Abraham out of which the Christ would come???

I think it is safe to say that most of us have always understood that Adam was Adam and that both chapters refer to the same person. You have pointed out that this ain't necessarily so and it seems like your point has real teeth. As Jesus was the second Adam....this suggests that maybe He was the first??? Obviously not the dirt bag Adam formed of dust, but the created (or maybe "begotten"?) Adam created in the image of God.

You have totally shaken my frame of reference and I imagine these thoughts will shake others also. What other parts of the blueprint are we missing?

I thought that this should be moved here from Bridegroom thread.

5 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:31 am

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Quote Mark,
As I look at the "creation" of "Adam (them)" in Gen 1, I note that it was on the 6th day and that this Adam was given dominion (although it is an earthly dominion only). End Quote:

I'm curious as to why you would think that this is only a earthly dominion. This is the Last Adam, The Christ/Man and All made in His image. Do we not have dominion in the earth and in the Heavens, because He does?

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, (Nature, male/female) there am I in the midst of them.

This is Dominion in Earth, and in Heaven Through Christ.

Blessings




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6 Gen 1&2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:52 am

Hibbs


looking at the word "earth" and "face of the earth", it seems to me that the dominion is limited to the plane of physical earth. The fact that it is the 6th day adds to that impression. Even the verses you quote from Mathew do not shift the dominion to man...the agreement (and this is at the crux of what we have been trying to discover) only sets the stage for the Father in heaven to act. I acknowledge that I did not consider those verses but I do not think that just because two of us agree on earth that things happen. There is a deeper sense of which two must agree.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The thing that is causing my mind to flip is the idea that the Adam created on the 6th day has dominion whereas the Adam formed from the dust on the 7th day (apparently) is a living soul. I just don't see how all dominion (in heaven and earth) was given to a 6th day creation absent a 7th day completion....If this is confusing it is because, like Ezekiel, I have left the shore and cannot touch the bottom of this river. Clearly this is taking us beyond some of our moorings and I haven't been this way before.

7 The Wedding on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:00 am

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You have totally shaken my frame of reference and I imagine these thoughts will shake others also. What other parts of the blueprint are we missing? End Quote:


There is something I would like to point out that is a reference to the Uniting, of the Separation that Adam in the Garden brought in.


Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Notice He calls her "Woman" this means much more than you think, this is What Adam called Eve. This is a direct reference to the Soul of Adam his Woman. But watch what happens.

Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Right here, you see the Woman in total submission to The Spirit of God her Saviour. Don't forget there is a marriage about to take place here. And not only that but "Wine" was the subject, and speaks of the Rhema Word or Quickened Word, from Water to Wine.

Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Joh 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

Filling with the Water of The Word. Six, The sixth Day of Gen.1 He only did what He saw the Father do. "Re-member".

Joh 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Again a direct reference to Gen. 1:26 The "Last" Adam Christ.

Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

This is so important to note that this is a Pattern, not only of His beginning miracles "within Us" (to join our male and female back together), but so that we can see His Glory, the Glory that He shared with the Father before the World was. John. 17:

Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.




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8 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:14 am

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Mark,
The thing that is causing my mind to flip is the idea that the Adam created on the 6th day has dominion whereas the Adam formed from the dust on the 7th day (apparently) is a living soul. I just don't see how all dominion (in heaven and earth) was given to a 6th day creation absent a 7th day completion....If this is confusing it is because, like Ezekiel, I have left the shore and cannot touch the bottom of this river. Clearly this is taking us beyond some of our moorings and I haven't been this way before. End Quote:


That's because the male/female spirit and soul are united as ONE in Christ, this is what causes the 7th Day Rest, our Sabbath, and it is never ending. These are the Works we are to enter into. "HIS WORKS" This is the only day mentioned where there is No Evening and No morning, No day and No night. Why?

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.









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9 Gen 1&2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:23 am

Hibbs


Scherryl; I feel like I have been putting this puzzle together for a long time and have been working on different sections but they did not fit into the rest of the picture. Once some of the sections are turned to look at them from a different aspect...eureka...they fit. I confess that they do not yet fit like I would like and the picture is still only fragmented...but I sense that the business of the cherubim and coverings and completion are causing the deep in me to call unto the deep of God like never before.

10 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:28 am

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Hibbs wrote:Scherryl; I feel like I have been putting this puzzle together for a long time and have been working on different sections but they did not fit into the rest of the picture. Once some of the sections are turned to look at them from a different aspect...eureka...they fit. I confess that they do not yet fit like I would like and the picture is still only fragmented...but I sense that the business of the cherubim and coverings and completion are causing the deep in me to call unto the deep of God like never before.

And That's always a good/God thing.




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11 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:43 am

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Scherryl wrote:Mark,
The thing that is causing my mind to flip is the idea that the Adam created on the 6th day has dominion whereas the Adam formed from the dust on the 7th day (apparently) is a living soul. I just don't see how all dominion (in heaven and earth) was given to a 6th day creation absent a 7th day completion....If this is confusing it is because, like Ezekiel, I have left the shore and cannot touch the bottom of this river. Clearly this is taking us beyond some of our moorings and I haven't been this way before. End Quote:


That's because the male/female spirit and soul are united as ONE in Christ, this is what causes the 7th Day Rest, our Sabbath, and it is never ending. These are the Works we are to enter into. "HIS WORKS" This is the only day mentioned where there is No Evening and No morning, No day and No night. Why?

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.







This is what I was thinking in the other thread when I said the covering is God. Now we are the covering over of God. The bushel to the candle.

But then we will be covered by The glory of God and the Lamb, which is like being returned to the garden but better. Its the finished state.

12 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:00 pm

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I'm not sure what happened to my last post over here . . . I ran out of time anyway but it's odd that it's not showing up.

I'm pulling this response over from the other post . .. I'm glad you started one specifically on Genesis. I need to post some stuff I'd written up on the first three chapters of Genesis and let all of you chew through that as well. This is such an awesome topic with so much depth. I'd like to remind everyone that because of the depth and the differences we each have in our relationship with the Father, it's absolutely OKAY that we all see things differently as well.

Unity isn't mental agreement . . .it's spiritual acceptance.

Having said that, I'd like to play with this a bit . . . Below is a response from Scherryl.
---------------------------------------------------

Quote Nathan,
And the topic in question was that man didn't walk in the dominion God claimed he had. So in your eyes, because chapter one is the end, dominion reigns there, even though dominion wasn't given in chapter one, it was given in chapter two. End Quote

Let's break it down a bit. First you said:

And the topic in question was that man didn't walk in the dominion God claimed he had.

No, I think your confused as to what I'm saying, Adam in the Garden never had dominion to walk in, he was never told that by God. You are taking that from ch. 1 and applying it to Adam in ch.2 that's where your going off track right out of the gate. Show me in Ch.2 where God says that Adam has dominion.

Secondly you said:

So in your eyes, because chapter one is the end, dominion reigns there, even though dominion wasn't given in chapter one, it was given in chapter two. End Quote

Dominion is ONLY given to the man in ch.1, it is Never given in ch.2 to Adam. This is something we have been taught all our lives, but it is something that needs to come down.
I'm sorry Nathan, I do not want to be the one who is confusing things for you. I'm just trying to explain it the best way I know how, And the way it was revealed to me. There are to many differences in the two men.

We assume that Adam in the Garden had dominion because of the first ch., but that is not the same man. Adam was also put out of the Garden, the other trees in the Garden are still there, they can't be uprooted.


-------------------------------------------------

Okay . . .I'll start here . . . .
I think your confused as to what I'm saying, Adam in the Garden never had dominion to walk in, he was never told that by God. You are taking that from ch. 1 and applying it to Adam in ch.2 that's where your going off track right out of the gate. Show me in Ch.2 where God says that Adam has dominion.


Genesis 2
19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;

My question is, if how could Adam be given the ability to name the nature of every beast, but not have dominion over them? Have you ever had someone try to "peg" you? Did you watch the debate last night? They did it all through it. One would try to explain what the other said or wanted to do in their own words . . .it's a form of control. If I can put an identity to something, I own it, I control it. People say "Oh, you're in with the _____________ (enter your denomination/belief system here) crowd. They do that so they can peg you, which is the first step to discrediting you because once they've "identified" what they think you are, or what your motivations are, they can then bring it under their control.

Adam named every beast, from birds that fly to bugs that crawl. For me, that's all 1st dimensional, the underlying picture is that each animal, bird and bug he identified is actually an individual nature of mankind over all. We may want people to think we're king of the jungle, but in many cases, we're nothing more than the dung beatle, living on elephant poop. Praise Jesus, hallelujah!! tongue

But the point is, when Adam was allowed to name all the animals, "that" was the evidence that he had dominion over them. The man in me has dominion over every other beastly nature in me as well.

When Eve "desired" after Adam . . .God stated in chapter three that she would desire after him but he would rule over her. "That" to me is where God established the spiritual order in man. The Adam in me has dominion over the woman in me. And that's also why I think it was more than just Adam eating forbidden fruit, he was supposed to exercise his authority over his Eve but instead he recieived from her fruit that carnality decieved her into eating.

To your other comments . . . you're seeing Adam without dominion . .. what is your meassage you're aiming at with this? If Adam, the first born of man, didn't have dominion over the lower realm, then who did? And where then did Adam fit in with everything else created? Which kind of brings the same question back up again.

Everything was created "before" Adam came along. It was all created "for" Adam. If it was created for him, how could he not have dominion over it? Do we have domion now?

13 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:29 pm

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cross-eyed wrote:My question is, if how could Adam be given the ability to name the nature of every beast, but not have dominion over them? Have you ever had someone try to "peg" you? Did you watch the debate last night? They did it all through it. One would try to explain what the other said or wanted to do in their own words . . .it's a form of control. If I can put an identity to something, I own it, I control it. People say "Oh, you're in with the _____________ (enter your denomination/belief system here) crowd. They do that so they can peg you, which is the first step to discrediting you because once they've "identified" what they think you are, or what your motivations are, they can then bring it under their control.

Adam named every beast, from birds that fly to bugs that crawl. For me, that's all 1st dimensional, the underlying picture is that each animal, bird and bug he identified is actually an individual nature of mankind over all. We may want people to think we're king of the jungle, but in many cases, we're nothing more than the dung beatle, living on elephant poop. Praise Jesus, hallelujah!! tongue

But the point is, when Adam was allowed to name all the animals, "that" was the evidence that he had dominion over them. The man in me has dominion over every other beastly nature in me as well. . .

. . .Everything was created "before" Adam came along. It was all created "for" Adam. If it was created for him, how could he not have dominion over it? Do we have domion now?

Nathan, does this naming-ability represent a true dominion? Immediately, I think of the distinction between TPTB (The Powers That Be) and TPT^3B (The Powers That Think They Be). What do these principalities believe they control? Jacob believed he was running a pretty effective program by so shrewdly heisting his brother's birthright, notwithstanding the fact that he had gained an enemy who wanted to see him dead. But what happened when he wrestled with God directly? He got his prize, he won! He realized Who was really in charge. God gave him a new name to commemorate the old Jacob's victory over himself: Israel, or God rules!

This is where dominion belongs, always has and always will. We are Israel because we know that God is sovereign over all. Of course He is, by right of His creation of all.

Years ago I wanted to learn how to draw, so I read a book called Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. Probably relates to much of our discussion here in a way, now that I think about it. The deal is our brain's right hemisphere is the part that sees and experiences, whereas the left side holds the language-related capabilities. The mode of the left hemisphere is verbal and analytic, while that of the right is nonverbal and global. While the two hemispheres are capable of working together on certain levels--and we are firing on all cylinders when they do--the left brain is generally known to interfere with the function of the right. Case in point: try to draw an object in the room where you're sitting. You'll look at it, maybe discern some of it's features in terms of proportions, angles, light and shadow, its position relative to other objects, but the moment you put a name to the object you actually stop seeing it and it becomes impossible to draw! We can do a simple experiment to verify this. Take a photograph or drawing and try to draw a copy of it with your own hand. For a left-brain-dominant person this is very awkward. Now start again with a fresh sheet of paper, only turn your subject picture upside-down! The effort immediately produces good fruit. We can easily draw that which we actually see. We are not so quick to name features (and feel as if we own them) when all is upside-down and unrecognizable.

"If I can put an identity to something, I own it, I control it." {OR?} If I put an identity on something, I just lost it?

Wow, now that was a side-trip. Wondering if that fleshly veil which separates spirit and soul is what’s hindering our brains from working together with itself.

Point is in all this, Nathan, is that if man (whoever he was/is/will be at the time) had dominion over creation it was only to the extent that he was perfectly one with the Creator. Was that us, at any time in our history? We haven’t yet seen all of the living creatures in God’s creation, let alone named them. And when we do both see and name, I hope that our right and left hemispheres are working together, that no veil exists between the soul and the spirit, and no separation whatsoever exists between us and He Who created us.

14 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:34 pm

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Nathan,

I don't really know how to answer that. But I will say that like you I too believe those "beast" that he named/natured are more principalities and powers than animals.

The question is how could he have named them unless he Identified with them? They would have had to of been a part of him in order to do that. Or at least that's the way I see it.

And if he had dominion over them wouldn't he have been able to overcome them? Including the serpent, he was a beast of the field too. And the most subtle of all, but Adam was not deceived so he knew very well what was going on, and still allowed it to take place.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


But scripture is plain as far as what Reigned in the earth until Christ, and that was Death. If Adam Reigned at all it wasn't in The Kingdom of God, it was in The kingdoms of this world. So in that sense I guess he was given dominion to rule in that capacity Until Christ.

I mean we know that there is the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of Light.

And as we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bare the image of the Heavenly. But.......The first Adam was NOT Heavenly, but earthy, natural, The last Adam, is from Heaven, Heavenly.

You had asked:
To your other comments . . . you're seeing Adam without dominion . .. what is your meassage you're aiming at with this? If Adam, the first born of man, didn't have dominion over the lower realm, then who did? And where then did Adam fit in with everything else created? Which kind of brings the same question back up again.

Gen. 1 the first day.

You and I once agreed that what Adam partook of was The Law, that was the tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.
How can this not be important? For by the Law is The Knowledge of Sin.

Sin had to be in Adam "before" he ate of it, or his nakedness would have not been revealed. The same as the separation of His female is seen. My question is ...Why was he found Alone, if he was in True fellowship with God. The separation in him had already started Long "before" she was removed, that was the manifestation of what was going on in him. IMHO.

You asked what am I aiming at with this message?

To show that without Christ, The Only begotten Son, there is no way we or Adam however you want to look at it, had or has dominion over anything. And this was always God's plan from the beginning, That His Son would have Preeminence in all things.

We had to experience the depths of Darkness, before we could experience The depths of The Light of God, it was necessary.

But when we say that Adam in the Garden had dominion and then fell from that. See how that changes everything? He would have had it without any mention of Christ.

We are told Jesus Christ had the spirit without measure.
Why is that? I believe that it is to show that the first Adam did not. Why is He seen in the Garden so many times in scripture? Redemption.

To sum up.

The fist Adam Gen. 1:2 his dominion, darkness.
The last Adam Gen. 1:26- His dominion, God's image and likeness, Light. Redemption for All.




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15 Bridegroom and Bride on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:33 am

Hibbs


Scherryl; You continue to have my attention. I am still struggling with one question. Why is the Adam of Gen 1 (who appears to be the shadow or type of the 2nd Adam, Christ) be created on the 6th day and not the other way around??

16 Bridegroom and Bride on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:01 am

Hibbs


David; you raised some points that had come to mind yesterday on the earlier thread and I started to write on "breaking down the middle wall of partition". Attached is where I started to write and am still working on the idea but think you have hit on target with the other points raised by others.

THE MIDDLE WALL OF DIVISION
There are so many thoughts that have been triggered by the forum that I need to try and deal with them before putting anything online. In nature, we have: the equator separating the north and south poles, night and day, dark and light, negative and positive, above and below sea level, cold and hot, and on and on we could go. In the heart, we have the septum dividing the chambers. In the brain, we have hemispheres. In species, we have the division of sexes into male and female with the hymen or maidenhead between. In the Bible we have the Old and New Testaments, law and grace, death and life, asleep or awake, etc. In history we have BC and AD. In the spritual realm, we have: flesh and spirit, Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Adam and Christ, old wine and new wine, the law of sin and death and the law of life in the spirit, the works of the flesh and the fruit of the spirit, the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life, the seen and the unseen, gates of hell and gates of heaven, and multiple instances of principles in tension one with another. In religion and philosophy we have the Ying and the Yang, Jekyll and Hyde, Luke's force and Vader's dark side and so on through Confucionism, Taoism, etc. In all of the conflict of mankind there are always two major forces pitted one against another.

Now Todd points out:
Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." [center] The point made is that the sword of the spirit goes to the division...a point that I do not believe should be ignored.

Now Scherryl points out two Adams (and not just the difference between the Adam of Genesis and Paul's second Adam in Romans). The thought now occurs that as the tree in the center of the garden was two trees, and the sword has two edges, and the covenant has two testaments, and the law has two sides (law of sin and death and law of life in the spirit); that we are seeing the wheel within a wheel echoing throughout all of the shadows and types into the full manifestation of that which was hidden from the beginning. It is amazing how God hides things in plain view and then we find ourselves veiled from the truth because we try to find it in ourselves when it is hidden in the self of Christ.

The Adam of Gen 2 was not in communion with God and Scherryl has pointed out that the "subtle" of the serpent is the same word as the "naked" of Adam and Eve. They were laid bare. Once we eat of the law and discover that we too are unclothed (or uncovered) before Him, do we not try to hide our nakedness from ourselves?? Do we not engage in a "subtle" deception and try to persuade ourselves that we had dominion and only need to understand out true identity in order to realize that we are one with God...i.e. that it is not robbery to be : "equal with God" such that we can now remember who we really are??

Or instead, was Adam naked from the beginning and formed of the dust so to be sown in corruption that a new seed might be sown into our earth and bring forth a new man? In the process of the union of conception with all of the fine points of the hymen and the veil reflecting in type the greater truth that our womb is opened by the Holy Spirit so that the seed of Christ might produce in us even as it produced in Mary when visited by the angel of the Lord?

I don't know if I am experiencing the pen of a ready writer or the loose lips of a fool...but I am enjoying the thought process and am seeing some things that I have never seen before.

17 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:36 am

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Mark. I think the subtle deception is not that we were one with God, but that we weren't. That again is the division. When the serpent says you will be like God(s) that implys that they weren't. Eve said nothing of this. And there being like Gods was not in I but I.

Now you asked why the different days? IMO the lamb slain from the foundation of the kosmos is the 6th day. Friday is the sixth day the day before the sabbath. Good Friday. And he rested the 7th day. And was raised the 8th. I wrote about the eternal lamb slain aka big bang and the 30 ad lamb slain being the same. So the lamb slain from the foundation took place on day six. Read heb 4. :4
Gods works were done before the foundation. And that's why there is the divided mind in gen 2 because the lamb was slain. Creation was subjected. Lowered. The word foundation is more like the casting down. That's a more literal rendering I think.

Heb 1:3 says he sat down when had completed cleansing of sins.
John 4 says his food is to do the work of Father

But Heb 4 says Gods works were done before the foundation. I think gen 1 takes place out of time. It is purely The Framework as I like to call it. It is the unseen things that the seen are made out of. Remember He rose on the eighth day. The new creation. That would also be day one for Adam. Life out of death. It's like cell division. That's the model of creation. The death of the lamb created the cosmos. His work is His Fathers work and that was done before the foundation.

18 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:32 am

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Hibbs wrote:Scherryl; You continue to have my attention. I am still struggling with one question. Why is the Adam of Gen 1 (who appears to be the shadow or type of the 2nd Adam, Christ) be created on the 6th day and not the other way around??

Hi Mark,
I'm so glad to see that your still pondering these things.

I think the struggle might be, your seeing it as just beginning on the sixth day, what I see is it has been a progressive act of His Word (Christ)coming forth since vs 3, up to, the 6th day, and then being finished. I also am seeing here, a many membered body created in His image (The Christ).

In fact, if you look up the words male/female in this day, the Prim. root of both words, is Remembered, now I know that many could argue to the fact that we may be twisting things, but since I believe that it is describing a Corporate body, one could even say (The Sons of God) then I think that it could very well be Re-membered as Todd I think, pointed out.

There is something else too, that I wanted to touch on.
I truly believe that there is a major transformation coming in this day that we are in, if you look at all the times in the Gospels that the 3rd day and last day is mentioned, it will give you a better understanding of where we are, and what is about to take place. For example.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Take note of after 6 days: This is the place that we are referring to in Gen.1:26- That is if we are seeing this in Truth, that we are now past the 6th day and are entering into the Last day. Which is never ending.


Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

I can only speculate here, but what I see is this transformation of Him, is becoming very obvious to those who have been set apart from the rest.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Moses and Elijah is no doubt (symbolic of) The Law and The prophets, Which is The Word, Which is The Christ of God, which is "Two" when seen by the eyes of the flesh, but....When we see Him as He is, we shall be like Him, please keep that in mind. Because when they disappear, He is pictured as the embodiment of both in ONE. Which we are His body, and so as we see Him like this, we are becoming the same as He is.
We are His body, we are His mouthpiece, we are the Two in ONE witnesses of Rev. The Law and The Prophets, but a many membered body, but ONE, nevertheless. I believe that this is the purpose of The Sons of God being made manifest in this World.


Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

I think that this is pretty obvious what is being shown here, which is the time of Tabernacles. I say no more about that. Other than the fact, that it was not yet time, as The voice from the Heavens says, ONLY, This is My beloved Son, In whom He is well Pleased, watch this....
"HEAR YE HIM", it's almost like He saying, not yet, but listen to Him, Until....... This is the process or progression that I spoke of when starting out with this post, that we see leading up to this time.


Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

I hope I din't confuse the issue anymore, but hope that it helps.

Blessings




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19 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:31 pm

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Mark and Jeremy,

Both of you, excellent train of thoughts and I fully agree with both of you. I went back and read both of your replies, and WOW, to both.

All I can say is God is Awesome, and I am so humbled and privileged to be in this place with His Sons, and in this Day.

The Two, the negative and the positive, the first and the last, the old and the new, are becoming ONE, in Him, for Purpose.
We are becoming ONE, in Him with Purpose, His purpose.

Mat 13:52 Then said He unto them, On this account every scribe which is initiated as a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new in character and old.

Blessings




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20 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:36 pm

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Or, as Nathan's Message puts it:

He said, "Then you see how every student well-trained in God's kingdom is like the owner of a general store who can put his hands on anything you need, old or new, exactly when you need it."
(Mat 13:52)


I'm liking this translation!

21 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:49 pm

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DavidHarreld wrote:Or, as Nathan's Message puts it:

He said, "Then you see how every student well-trained in God's kingdom is like the owner of a general store who can put his hands on anything you need, old or new, exactly when you need it."
(Mat 13:52)


I'm liking this translation!

Yeah, I like it too, I was going to get it also on e-sword but it's not free, who knows maybe I will one day. But I noticed I can use it online.




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22 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:26 pm

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This came out of Bullinger's The Witness of the Stars, which Scherryl showed me how to get on e-Sword:

Then it will be said to His people (and the setting of the prophecy in its beautiful introverted structure shows us the beauty and glory of the truth it reveals): *

a: Arise,
b: Shine; for thy light is come,
c: And the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
d: For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
d: And gross darkness the people;
c: But the LORD shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.
b: And the Gentiles shall come to thy light,
a: And kings to the brightness of thy rising. (Isaiah 60:1-3)

* Note that--
In a and a, we have the rising of Israel;
In b and b, the light that is come upon her;
In c and c, the glory of the LORD; and
In d and d, the darkness of the world.


More of the last-first and the first-last!

23 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:37 pm

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David that's awesome!!!

The witness of the stars is that a separate book? because all I have is in Appen. 12 The Stars also.




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24 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:42 pm

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Yes! It is one of the topic notes on the link you sent me. Thank you for that!

25 Re: Gen 1 & 2 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:49 pm

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DavidHarreld wrote:This came out of Bullinger's The Witness of the Stars, which Scherryl showed me how to get on e-Sword:

Then it will be said to His people (and the setting of the prophecy in its beautiful introverted structure shows us the beauty and glory of the truth it reveals): *

a: Arise,
b: Shine; for thy light is come,
c: And the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
d: For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
d: And gross darkness the people;
c: But the LORD shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.
b: And the Gentiles shall come to thy light,
a: And kings to the brightness of thy rising. (Isaiah 60:1-3)

* Note that--
In a and a, we have the rising of Israel;
In b and b, the light that is come upon her;
In c and c, the glory of the LORD; and
In d and d, the darkness of the world.


More of the last-first and the first-last!

Oh my Goodness!!!

I was just looking at this again and you ain't gonna believe what I just saw.

David, you couldn't have posted this in a better place, check this out.

We've been talking about Gen. 1 and the progression of The Last Adam seen in vs. 26-- Remember, maybe not so much the guys but I know that the ladies will remember this, when we used to play with string and make Jacob's ladder, and then hand it off to the next person etc. etc.

We would start in the middle of the conglomeration that they made and lift up and put it on our hands, and continue to make something different.

Start in the middle and go OUT, and see if you see what I see.
It is a perfect picture of Gen. 1

d,d
c,c
b,b
and A,A

The darkness was first seen in ch. 1:2
The Glory and the rising, ascending, which is the Rest of God is seen in the Last Day, 7th Day.

WOW, is God not Amazing!!!




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